Children punished for refusing to pray to Allah

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High Threshold
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Children punished for refusing to pray to Allah

Post by High Threshold »

Oscar Namechange;1457660 wrote: The saddest part of your post Is where you say ' Sorry I can't express myself'..... some unInformed may believe this Is down to you struggling to find words and not what Is happening In your country.

I don't want to lead you Into saying anything that may bring problems to you.

We have been fully aware of the changing laws In Sweden and from here, we and the far right have been watching developments In Sweden for a long time. In fact, Sweden has been the subject of many a meeting here and how the UK could possibly follow suit. To say the British Far right Is disgusted Is an understatement and why they'll continue however much the Left want to shut down the BNP, to ensure this never happens here.

So what's happening In Sweden folks that's so shocking?

As of December this year, laws are to be passed In Sweden that critisizing Islam will be Illegal and a criminal offence. An Insult to democracy, freedom, freedom of speech and civil liberties, but It's happening.

So remember, If you go to Sweden after December, you can critisize the Sikh's, the Hindu's or even the Christians but you will be locked up If you mention ' Islam' Also remember, the Muslim's can critisize you, your government, even rape your children, but you must remain silent when they do.

This Is why the far right In the UK will continue. So next time, anyone critisizes the likes of Nick Griffin for speaking out, Imagine what our country would be like If we sold out our democracy to a religion, a faith, a belief.

Sweden, you have our sympathies !!!

I have taken this article on the web, one of many for no particular reason.

A new law will come into effect in Sweden after Christmas 2014, that will allow people to be prosecuted for criticizing immigration or politician’s unwillingness to tackle the issue.

The Constitutional Committee’s report has been voted for in parliament, seen in a letter from the Parliamentary Offices.

Member of Parliament Andrew Norlén, member of the Constitutional Committee, has been pushing the issue and he says it will rapidly become a deterrent.

“I do not think it takes very many prosecutions before a signal is transmitted in the community that the internet is not a lawless country, the sheriff is back in town” Norlén said during a one-sided ‘debate’ on the issue in Swedish parliament.

This new law is meant to stop Swedish people from complaining about their country being turned into a third world nation.

Sweden passes law that will prosecute people for criticizing immigration | EUTimes.net

Unreal: SWEDEN passes law to criminalise criticism of Muslim immigration — Winds Of Jihad By SheikYerMami


I’m sceptical. There is some truth in its background I’m sure. For example: It is illegal to call an immigrant “svartskalle”. This sort of means “darkie”. However there is no law (that I’m aware of) that denies the use of any combination of “Swedish bastard” or even calling us Nazi, racist or EuroTrash. In other words, slander us our colour, our culture, our language, our customs, our laws if you like and we have no legal possibility of exchanging ethnic insults with you.

“The right”, “the left” …. I hold no importance in titles any longer. I’m a leftist deep down, but being a this or a that means nothing if there is no representation in sight. The government we have now may just as well line up at the gates to the American embassy with their breeches dropped and spread their collective bum for the Yanks to have their joy. The Social Democrats are creeping ever closer to following suit, even agreeing with membership in NATO - the f-ing turncoats. And the left? They have no idea what they are doing. I’ve talked with them – and I know! Absolutely no clue to their own agenda! And why? Because they have none. Their only cry is, “down with the right!” Then there is the “right”. But actually we can disregard the neo-Nazis, the White Resistance and the Skåne separatist anti-Moslems. They don’t really figure. That leaves us with the now famous SD – Sverige Demokraterna – Sweden Democrats. There are 2 major points to their existence.

1). They openly express concern with immigration.

2). The fact that each and every other political party PROUDLY declared they would NOT cooperate with SD once it gets into parliament, thus making SD the most Democratic party by default …. if for no other reason.

But this “new law” you speak of. The problem here is that translations are often taken literally. This one is in English. Now I can tell you of countless of times where our media has reported, “As of the first of XXX, it will be illegal to XXX” - then that date goes by with neither any change nor another word about it. A couple of years ago it was reported that begging would be illegal as of XXX, and that’ll be the end of it. Well, the beggars continued to sparsely adorn the High Street ….. fast forward to this year, government now proclaims that it was perfectly legal to do so and now the bloody floodgates have burst and we have Romanian beggars sitting out front of every blasted “Swedish owned” shop all over town. Funny that they shy away from the Arab-owned shops. Hmmmm. I wonder why that is? Anyway, if our media reports “it will be”, then you can’t translate it any other way.
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High Threshold
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recovering conservative;1457669 wrote: I'm a supporter of Julian Assange's work, and I agree with those who consider the effort of the Swedish Government to extradite him on rape charges, as being motivated by the U.S. effort to get him into their custody on espionage charges etc.. But, all that said, when the two women claiming sexual assault by Assange came forward, I was left with the impression that 'where there's smoke, there's a fire!' They claim he agreed to use a condom and then took it off....that still qualifies as rape, because if he tossed the condom while he was doing them, that violated the terms that they agreed to have sex with him, case closed! And what if he has AIDS or some other STD? What would you call it then?


Those “two women” are being manipulated by the powers that you describe in your first sentence. You’ve got the news down the line, after the fiddling had ready taken affect. There’s a time-line here that is very important to know and it changes the perspective one is left with:

1). Sex with Assange, without a condom. Initially stated that he didn’t really like using them and well …. OK then. Verbally negociated. No ripping off of the thing in a surprise attack at the crucial moment.



2). He doesn’t have AIDS or some other STD. The women were tested and so was he. NOTE: I am not using that as an excuse for unsafe sex, only as a FYI.



So what happened?

The two women got together and (quite naturally) started thinking “what if?” Being women they decided to go to the police (rather than to Julian himself, or the doc’s) to ask if one could compel another person to test themselves for HIV. ONLY TO ASK! Assange was willing to do that if only they’d ask him. And he did. But back to the police. Standard forms: name, etc. “Julian Assange you say?” The official wheels started to turn. Here’s a chance to turn him over to the Yanks but the women didn’t want to make any trouble for him and declined to pursue pressing any charges. What to do now? No problem. A “crime” is a “crime”- a matter for the police. Of course it would strengthen their case if the women would cooperate. Easily fixed. And there you have it. How do I know this to be the TRUE STORY? Who really does know the true story? I’m just giving you the express version as it unfolded day for day, not the week later version after the manipulation had been put into place, washing out what was reported before that.



recovering conservative;1457669 wrote: True rape? Is this another one of those attempts to muddle up the language like that idiot - George Will did …..


“True rape” being my own words, is the second question then meant for me?





recovering conservative;1457669 wrote: In Canada, we are starting to learn of this "Swedish Model" now that our conservative clown Prime Minister is pushing through federal legislation to adopt this strategy for dealing with prostitution issues. Just about every news article I've read coming from the women in the trenches - who work on behalf of sex workers, or deal with young women forced into low level street prostitution, say that the state persecuting the clients, will do nothing to protect the interests of the women, since the business will be forced further and further into the margins...getting into stranger's cars etc., so I'll agree its bad idea, that doesn't benefit women either...if that was the intended point.


I’ve heard the term “penis envy” and I really should do some reading on it. It might help to explain why it is that some women are so concerned and down-right bent on controlling man’s orgasm. “Prostitution”, “Pornography”, and “Pseudo”- rape. Soon we'll be compelled to submit to a brain scan if we want to pull ourselves, just to see if we have any "incorrect" thoughts while doing the deed. Those women ought to ask the opinion of trans-sexual 'women to men'. They’ll tell you all about the effects of testosterone injections.
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Oscar Namechange;1457714 wrote: I really should. Been up since 4 am. Had really long day and evening out with Peter. But..... Kill Bill 11 Is on Tv and half way through.


I so love the Kill Bill movies not to mention Pulp Fiction. My fave part of Pulp Fiction is where John Travolta & Irma Thurman go to that fifties retro restaurant and they do the twist to Chuck Berry's song:

"It was a teenage wedding, and the old folks wished them well

You could see that Pierre did truly love the madamoiselle

And now the young monsieur and madame have rung the chapel bell

C'est la vie", say the old folks, it goes to show you never can tell."

Last night I watched Django Unchained for the third time.

Quentin Tarantino makes great movies ... but I have to admit I could do with less violence.
"…I hate how I don’t feel real enough unless people are watching." — Chuck Palahniuk, Invisible Monsters
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Post by recovering conservative »

Oscar Namechange;1457680 wrote: Our governments fund secular faith schools. They also fund Islamic schools.



Islamic schools condemned by David Cameron receive state funding - Telegraph

Yes, parts of England are Balkanized but that's down to EU dictate on oversea's jobs. I would actually say The Balkans do Integrate very well especially where I live.


Thanks for more info! Although the term:"secular faith schools" sounds like an oxymoron to me....sort of like George Carlin's old line about "military intelligence."

Sometimes secularism goes into overdrive, and way beyond what's necessary. A good recent example here in Canada was a law drafted in Quebec that the former Parti Quebecois Government thought would be a winning issue going into the election: a ban on religious headgear and accessories in schools, public places and worn by government employees. Quebec, since the Cultural Revolution over half a century ago...when they tossed the Catholic Church out of government, schools and public places...has taken a similar extreme attitude of secularism that France engages in. As it turned out, the new secularism law backfired badly for the P.Q. and got them dumped out of office and the Law recinded by the incoming Liberal Government.

But, to go to the other extreme, and deliberately fund religions and put religious education in the schools is even worse, because the end result are schools and neighbourhoods balkanized by religious and cultural divisions. Public schools should be the place where children of all different races, cultures and religions get together. There is much less likelihood that the adults of native and immigrant communities will have much interaction together; so real integration begins with the 2nd generation children growing up in their new land.

We adults usually only become friends with people from outside cultures when our children bring us together. That's what happened beginning almost 20 years ago, when our eldest son became friends with a new kid who's family was originally from Central America (Guatemala and El Salvador to be exact). Our entire families eventually got to meet and share time together...had barbecues in the summer etc.. And we still keep in contact and visit a couple of times a year, even though we live about 50 miles (80 km.) apart now. Our families would have never had the opportunity to get to know each other if our kids went to segregated schools.
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Post by recovering conservative »

High Threshold;1457729 wrote: Those “two women” are being manipulated by the powers that you describe in your first sentence.
All we know for sure is that the two women did not want to be in the public spotlight, since at least one of them said she would prefer to drop charges rather than be identified with a sensational international trial. Whether they are being "manipulated" is a value judgment, and we can't get inside their heads and determine motives under the present conditions.

It's far more likely that the manipulation is coming from the U.S. Government, since the main no.1 contentious issue according to Assange's lawyer, is that they want a guarantee that Julian Assange will not be extradited to the U.S. for a show trial, and last I heard, the Swedish Government has refused to provide that guarantee.

You’ve got the news down the line, after the fiddling had ready taken affect. There’s a time-line here that is very important to know and it changes the perspective one is left with:

1). Sex with Assange, without a condom. Initially stated that he didn’t really like using them and well …. OK then. Verbally negociated. No ripping off of the thing in a surprise attack at the crucial moment.



2). He doesn’t have AIDS or some other STD. The women were tested and so was he. NOTE: I am not using that as an excuse for unsafe sex, only as a FYI.



So what happened?

The two women got together and (quite naturally) started thinking “what if?” Being women they decided to go to the police (rather than to Julian himself, or the doc’s) to ask if one could compel another person to test themselves for HIV. ONLY TO ASK! Assange was willing to do that if only they’d ask him. And he did. But back to the police. Standard forms: name, etc. “Julian Assange you say?” The official wheels started to turn. Here’s a chance to turn him over to the Yanks but the women didn’t want to make any trouble for him and declined to pursue pressing any charges. What to do now? No problem. A “crime” is a “crime”- a matter for the police. Of course it would strengthen their case if the women would cooperate. Easily fixed. And there you have it. How do I know this to be the TRUE STORY? Who really does know the true story? I’m just giving you the express version as it unfolded day for day, not the week later version after the manipulation had been put into place, washing out what was reported before that.


Have the police interview transcripts been published? Because a lot of the stories of what they said/or didn't say may be based on hearsay and speculation.

The Julian Assange issue has also divided feminists in America, with some like Naomi Wolffe arguing that his work on revealing the secrets of increasing government surveillance and actions taken by military forces are too important to be diverted by the rape issue, while the likely majority of mainstream feminists don't want an exception made for Julian Assange. It should be noted though, that there were already stories coming out of Australia, England and Iceland, that impugn the character of Julian Assange as a sexual predator and an egotist and self-aggrandizing backstabber to many of the people who worked for him and Wikileaks. Not that he has to be a moral example for the world. Often the people who step outside of convention and do great things are seriously flawed people themselves. So, I would like to see Assange continue working at serving the public interest also, I just don't want to promote any illusions that he is exemplary in character/or allow that line of thinking to attack any who come forward against him on personal issues.



I’ve heard the term “penis envy” and I really should do some reading on it. It might help to explain why it is that some women are so concerned and down-right bent on controlling man’s orgasm. “Prostitution”, “Pornography”, and “Pseudo”- rape. Soon we'll be compelled to submit to a brain scan if we want to pull ourselves, just to see if we have any "incorrect" thoughts while doing the deed. Those women ought to ask the opinion of trans-sexual 'women to men'. They’ll tell you all about the effects of testosterone injections.


That's a totally bizarre statement considering that the underlying purpose behind the development of patriarchal societies was men who were awed and intimidated by the power of women to bring forth new life, and sought ways to take control of the whole process, by carefully regulating who their women have sex with, when they are allowed/or forced to have sex, and how many children they should bear.

"Penis envy" was just a bullshit concept created by Sigmund Freud a century ago, at a time when middle and upper class women were first starting to protest against how their lives were constricted and managed by men. If women did have "penis envy" during Victorian times, they had justifiable reasons...since their lives were mostly tightly constrained, with even middle and upper class women having no access to higher education or professional careers. The only option was to "marry well." The envy had more to do with envy of the power men had and they lacked, than it did with any stupid Freudian notions of lacking penises!

Remember that a century ago, the prevailing intellectuals had long determined that women did not/and should not enjoy sex. They offer sex in return for love and material gain after marriage. The Victorians never considered how closely their version of male/female interaction mirrored prostitution, but that's another story! The women in those times who were highly sexual, were considered aberrant by the likes of Freud. They were suffering from "nymphomania" or "hysteria" if they weren't happy with their sex lives.

Even the issue of whether women innately seek to control men's sexuality is debateable, since we have this long thousands of years of history of men ruthlessly controlling women/and women responding by using deception and more subtle means to improve their lot in life. So, in my own homelife, my wife would feel a revulsion if I went to a hooker. As for porn: it's while you're raising young children that your porn consumption is really constricted. My wife and most married women carry the attitude of 'don't ask/don't tell' when it comes to porn...they just don't want to see it, and especially never, ever, leave any porn in access of the children! Back in the 80's, when a stupid, assinine TV show "Baywatch" was popular on TV, we used to say that Baywatch was popular because it is was mild enough to serve as our porn fix while their were kids running around the house. There was no other logical reason why it was a top 10 show for several years running!

So, to break it all down...and the only point where this might possibly intersect with the thread topic, women who live in freer societies are more open and honest in their interractions with men, than women who come from places where the culture is still controlling and highly misogynistic, since most of the complaints about women being evil and cunning and selfish, come from the countries where women are oppressed and cannot be honest about their feelings or intentions around men. Anthropologists even today, often describe themselves as taken aback by the conduct of women in the few remaining wild hunter/gatherer tribes living in places like the Amazon Valley, because the pattern of hunter/gatherer life has never been one where women are dependent on men for their livelihood or survival. The women (like the men) think and behave collectively when it comes to providing for children and gathering food, so women of tribes like the Yanomamo of the Upper Amazon, have sex with the men they want to have sex with, and refuse those they don't want to bed down with. Westerners describe them as direct, honest and blunt/ certainly not shy, reserved or intimidated by outsiders, and that's what really disturbed most of the early anthropologists a century ago, who were so shocked, they even refrained from including most of their sexual behaviour in their field notes.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

High Threshold;1457724 wrote:

A couple of years ago it was reported that begging would be illegal as of XXX, and that’ll be the end of it. Well, the beggars continued to sparsely adorn the High Street ….. fast forward to this year, government now proclaims that it was perfectly legal to do so and now the bloody floodgates have burst and we have Romanian beggars sitting out front of every blasted “Swedish owned” shop all over town. Funny that they shy away from the Arab-owned shops. Hmmmm. I wonder why that is? Anyway, if our media reports “it will be”, then you can’t translate it any other way.


Until last year, we have a crime known as being ' an Incorrigible rogue' under the Vagrancy Act ie unable to sleep rough or beg. This was one of hundreds of laws repealed. Co-Incidence that this was at the time Romanians and Bulgarians were due to arrive here after entering the EU. Also co-Incidence that It was also at a time our police forces all over the country saw job losses and cuts In funding. Being the old cynic, I am sure this was done because they knew there may be possibly a wave of begging on the streets and the police were under-manned to deal with It. Having said that, I haven't seen overt begging on the streets In London when visiting family as yet.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

R.C.: ""Penis envy" was just a bullshit concept created by Sigmund Freud a century ago, at a time when middle and upper class women were first starting to protest against how their lives were constricted and managed by men. If women did have "penis envy" during Victorian times, they had justifiable reasons...since their lives were mostly tightly constrained, with even middle and upper class women having no access to higher education or professional careers. The only option was to "marry well." The envy had more to do with envy of the power men had and they lacked, than it did with any stupid Freudian notions of lacking penises!""

You are very smart & you express yourself very well.
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Oscar Namechange
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Back to topic...

As Investigations Into extremism In our schools spreads to London, I find this article very Interesting and hits many points. And no, not the rabid right wing Daily Mail... a Leftie view

Trojan Horse debate: We were wrong, all cultures are not equal - Telegraph
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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High Threshold
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recovering conservative;1457765 wrote: All we know for sure is that the two women did not want to be in the public spotlight, since at least one of them said she would prefer to drop charges rather than be identified with a sensational international trial. Whether they are being "manipulated" is a value judgment, and we can't get inside their heads and determine motives under the present conditions.
Agreed.

recovering conservative;1457765 wrote: It's far more likely that the manipulation is coming from the U.S. Government, since the main no.1 contentious issue according to Assange's lawyer, is that they want a guarantee that Julian Assange will not be extradited to the U.S. for a show trial, and last I heard, the Swedish Government has refused to provide that guarantee.
Yes. It follows the standard Swedish form. If you’re stopped for exceeding the speed limit and comment to the police that you really can’t afford the fine, he’ll reply, “There’s no fine, only a ticket”, meaning it’s only his job to ticket you. What he fails to inform you of is that when you sign that ticket you are “guilty” and there will be no possibility to deny it or offer an explanation in hopes of reducing the fine. So the would-be judge at Assanges’s rape trial said something to the effect, “We have no interest in sending Assange to the U.S. and it is unthinkable that he will be sent there.” “We” meaning the court of law with respects a charge of rape. What SÄPO might think and do (once he’s back in town) is an entirely different matter but the judge’s conscience is anyway clear.

recovering conservative;1457765 wrote: Have the police interview transcripts been published?


Very good question.

recovering conservative;1457765 wrote: Because a lot of the stories of what they said/or didn't say may be based on hearsay and speculation.


Always a possibility, yes. The difference being that “we” in Sweden have seen the stories from the very first one rather than restricted to the one(s) afterwards. A bit like being told the U.S. was wrong about WMD’s in Irak but not having the benefit of knowing the U.S. fabricated their “proof” of WMD existence. It gives you a different perspective.

recovering conservative;1457765 wrote: The Julian Assange issue has also divided feminists in America, with some like Naomi Wolffe arguing that his work on revealing the secrets of increasing government surveillance and actions taken by military forces are too important to be diverted by the rape issue …
I can’t agree more.

recovering conservative;1457765 wrote: … while the likely majority of mainstream feminists don't want an exception made for Julian Assange.


I don’t think that there are any exceptions being sought. Are there? Well, perhaps one. Sending out an international APB on a case of “without a condom” ALLEGED rape I think must be an exception in itself.



recovering conservative;1457765 wrote: It should be noted though, that there were already stories coming out of Australia, England and Iceland, that impugn the character of Julian Assange as a sexual predator and an egotist and self-aggrandizing backstabber to many of the people who worked for him and Wikileaks.
Obviously irrelevant.



recovering conservative;1457765 wrote: "Penis envy" was just a bullshit concept created by Sigmund Freud a century ago …………………………………………….


Sorry you took my comment so deeply. Anyway, I was responding to female intervention into the sphere of men IN MY COUNTRY. I should have made that clear. Sorry. A short list of women’s endeavours and successes in Sweden:

1). To ban pornography – on grounds that it is demeaning to women. Not yet in effect.

2). It is already illegal for men to frequent female prostitutes – on the grounds that it is “manipulative to women”. It is assumed then, they have no objection to male/homosexual prostitution. NOTE: It is perfectly legal for women to sell themselves, but illegal for men to buy them.

3). It is already illegal for men to have sex with any woman (even their own wives) if the woman was initially not in the mood. This comes under the heading of “rape” for which you can be charged and prosecuted.

4). Ban all public urinals – on ground that they discriminate against women. They’re still working on that one.

A new rage is singling out men on public transportation (and photographing them) with their knees apart. This is being called male chauvinism and a call to change men’s “attitude” is being debated. So, whether or not you agree with using the term “penis envy” I find it (by way of suggestive definition) describes the situation rather well. Give it any name you like.

THE BOTTOM LINE: I agree with you about not knowing all of the facts of the Assange case. I also agree that his work ought not be diminished for whatever other personal criticism may be levelled at him and that the whole rape thing is merely Sweden doing America’s dirty bidding.
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Post by High Threshold »

Oscar Namechange;1457793 wrote: Until last year, we have a crime known as being ' an Incorrigible rogue' under the Vagrancy Act ie unable to sleep rough or beg. This was one of hundreds of laws repealed. Co-Incidence that this was at the time Romanians and Bulgarians were due to arrive here after entering the EU. Also co-Incidence that It was also at a time our police forces all over the country saw job losses and cuts In funding. Being the old cynic, I am sure this was done because they knew there may be possibly a wave of begging on the streets and the police were under-manned to deal with It. Having said that, I haven't seen overt begging on the streets In London when visiting family as yet.


Lucky girl. We have heaps of them. We really got bombarded after the Romanian authorities’ suggestion of repatriation was rebuffed by our political mouthpieces. Perhaps the Romanian ambassador is an expert in reverse psychology?

The wrinkle is that there is no reason for begging in Sweden. Our laws (national combined with EU) provide for such circumstances with respects to laws and provisions. Simply put ….. if you have a right to reside in Sweden then you also have a right to social services – VERY generous indeed. If you are illegally in Sweden well, what more do I need to say?
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

High Threshold;1457822 wrote: Lucky girl. We have heaps of them. We really got bombarded after the Romanian authorities’ suggestion of repatriation was rebuffed by our political mouthpieces. Perhaps the Romanian ambassador is an expert in reverse psychology?

The wrinkle is that there is no reason for begging in Sweden. Our laws (national combined with EU) provide for such circumstances with respects to laws and provisions. Simply put ….. if you have a right to reside in Sweden then you also have a right to social services – VERY generous indeed. If you are illegally in Sweden well, what more do I need to say?


I do actually have a tad of sympathy for the Romanians.. They were ranked 77 th last year In GDP so there Is poverty there on a level us Westerners can't comprehend. Many of the Roma simply know no other way of life other than to beg and live off the land. Suddenly they are In a country where Immense wealth ( to them ) Is all around them. Then they are faced with complicated laws, by laws and rules of that host country. It must be difficult to adapt.

We have some around where we live who seem to have grasped the concept rather quickly and are making a living from the pickings of Western society, ie scrap metal, old clothes etc, even selling The Big Issue on the streets... but again, It comes down to diverse cultures struggling to exist side by side.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Post by High Threshold »

Oscar Namechange;1457854 wrote: I do actually have a tad of sympathy for the Romanians.. ...... Suddenly they are In a country where Immense wealth ( to them ) Is all around them. Then they are faced with complicated laws, by laws and rules of that host country. It must be difficult to adapt.




Sympathy is a seperate issue and "suddenly" does not really apply. These have come here with begging as an MO, not a fall back to more honest intentions. By the way, we do have a fair amount of them living here permanently and well ...... and not to make sweeping generalizations, pickpocketing, thievery and shoplifting are pretty much common place amongst them. I have had the misfortune of many experiences. The straight forward impression I have is that they appear to believe it is their cultural right to steal and cheat us out of our money and belongings.
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Oscar Namechange;1457813 wrote: Back to topic...

As Investigations Into extremism In our schools spreads to London, I find this article very Interesting and hits many points. And no, not the rabid right wing Daily Mail... a Leftie view

Trojan Horse debate: We were wrong, all cultures are not equal - Telegraph


OK back on topic: I read that link and my impression was one of revulsion! No wonder England has a problem with Muslim immigrants. The female convert that the author of that hit piece wrote actually made the most valid point in the whole piece: you can't expect people from foreign lands to warmly embrace the dogma that your culture is superior to theirs; but that's exactly what the U.K. Telegraph says in that article! I noticed Newsmax links in the side margin, does that mean the Telegraph is one more right wing rag run by the Murdoch Empire?

I am fortunate to have grown up in a country that never emphasized strong nationalistic sentiments...until very recently...under our Conservative Government. So today, most Canadians do not walk around with their chests out and act like they are better than the rest of the world! I do have some native blood in my lineage (about one eighth), and maybe that's enough to have led me to consider that my nation...like the United States was build on a foundation of driving off and even eradicating in some cases, the people who lived here originally.

One thing we do carry to our shame, is that like the United States, we came here from England and France with the notion that we were superior to the natives of this land, because we had a few inventions that they did not create for themselves. We decided that their culture of living within the limits of nature was backward, and had to be replaced with a new notion that nature was just a set of raw materials and resources for us to exploit for our own needs and devices. And we got these notions from our European heritage, because a few centuries ago, as Europe became overcrowded and resource-poor, they decided to encourage surplus people to emigrate to new lands, and manage those lands to send raw materials and foods back to mother country.

So, when I read the crap this Telegraph writer puts down about having a superior culture and denigrating all Muslims because of a reactionary trend in the Muslim World that RESULTED directly from the colonization and exploitation by England and the U.S. I can only say that England will end up getting what they deserve: a population of Muslim immigrants who feel that they will never fit in to the broader English fabric, and England will either have to choose to expel their Muslim immigrant populations, put them in ghettos and under repressive controls, or put up with unrest and a divided culture.
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recovering conservative;1457865 wrote:



So, when I read the crap this Telegraph writer puts down about having a superior culture and denigrating all Muslims because of a reactionary trend in the Muslim World that RESULTED directly from the colonization and exploitation by England and the U.S. I can only say that England will end up getting what they deserve: a population of Muslim immigrants who feel that they will never fit in to the broader English fabric, and England will either have to choose to expel their Muslim immigrant populations, put them in ghettos and under repressive controls, or put up with unrest and a divided culture. I didn't see It like that. Whilst I agree, there should be no superiority at all, the very problem with extremism In our schools, Is that one religion, Is seen as superior to Christianity, or any other religion. That's where the problem lies. When children are preached to about white prostitutes and told Jesus dolls are banned etc, there's your superiority.

I do see what the author of that article Is getting at. In recent decades we have seen culture In our society that we have never seen before. Acid attacks, arranged forced marriages, female genital mutilation, birth defects from first cousin marriages, honour killings, women traeated as second rate under Sharia law etc. Aspects of a culture most Westerners find abhorrent, so It's fair to say as a progressive Western society who frowns upon such practices, that our culture could be deemed superior simply for being more civilised.

The problems come when you take two cultures diverse and diametrically opposed and expect those cultures to co-exist side by side. For that to happen, one culture has to yield. Either the superior culture ( If we can call It that ) loses It's progression of civilisation or the opposing culture steps up to the superior.

In the main, most Muslims In the UK step up. The problem comes from radical extremists who wish the host country to abandon law and culture to accommodate culture that Is considered unacceptable by Western standards and live by 7th century preachings.
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Oscar Namechange;1457867 wrote: ... The problems come when you take two cultures diverse and diametrically opposed and expect those cultures to co-exist side by side. For that to happen, one culture has to yield. Either the superior culture ( If we can call It that ) loses It's progression of civilisation or the opposing culture steps up to the superior.


An interesting observation. I think you ought to have added that these two cultures are large in population, otherwise it would be similar to a tiny community of Christians living in a Moslem country where they have no choice but to keep their heads down.
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Oscar Namechange;1457867 wrote: I didn't see It like that.
Okay then, let me provide a couple of examples of why I did see this as one more example of Eurocentric supremacism:

Funnily enough, that’s exactly what we are saying, Myriam. Spot on! A Muslim girl who winds up in Bolton or Luton should thank her lucky stars she doesn’t live in Sudan – or Pakistan, where, only last month, a woman was stoned to death by her family for the crime of marrying a man of whom they disapproved.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have to expose Muslim children to as wide a range of experiences as possible so they will feel the gravitational pull of British values. If a Devon primary school recently criticised by Ofsted for not being multicultural enough (yes, really) can arrange a horizon-broadening trip to the inner city, then surely it’s time that Birmingham and Bradford came to Hereford and Hampshire. It was Rodgers and Hammerstein who observed in South Pacific: “You’ve got to be taught to hate and fear / You’ve got to be taught from year to year / It’s got to be drummed in your dear little ear / You’ve got to be carefully taught. / You’ve got to be taught before it’s too late / Before you are six or seven or eight / To hate all the people your relatives hate / You’ve got to be carefully taught.”


Trojan Horse debate: We were wrong, all cultures are not equal - Telegraph

First point that needs to be made is that Sudan, like much of the Arab and Muslim World, has gone through a process of re-feudalization and fundamentalism since modern times when their nations were either overrun and colonized, or had foreign-backed despots set in place to harvest resources for foreign export, along with the collapse of the last caliphate, with the Fall of the Ottoman Empire. I believe the Muslim World was well on a path towards progress until some nations got the oil curse, which attracted all of this foreign interest into their nations and managing their affairs.

Sudan's troubles, like the rest of East Africa's, have grown over the last three or four decades because of one of the very early indicators of climate change: longer and more persistent droughts in drier regions of the world. Sudan's wars, civil conflicts, retreat to fundamentalism etc., cannot be separated from the facts on the ground, that there are now too many people trying to scratch out a way of life on a drying landscape and food is becoming more in short supply and more costly. Labeling the Sudan Crisis as a religious war between a Muslim north and a Christian south, was just a convenient contrivance advanced by a bunch of dogooders (George Clooney & co.) doing the PR for NGO's that are used as an advance army of foreign capital and economic interests. And what could attract them more than oil? After the breakup of Sudan into two nations, did that stop the war, the famine, the refugee camps etc.? NO, the only difference today is that Clooney in on to his next bullshit Hollywood cause and the oil companies and agribusiness interests are only concerned with preventing combatants from damaging their interests.

That self-serving article didn't mention a word about Sudan being a former colony of England a century ago, because England takes the attitude towards their colonization period as America does with slavery: it's ancient history and has no effects on present day events. But, that is wrong in both cases! Because history is not sharply divided between before and after; it takes time and improved economic outcomes for most people to make the old wounds of history go away completely. They just don't magically disappear because some people don't want to consider them or their role in these problems. If English governments had really thought it through, they would have set a policy years ago, that prevented immigration from their former colonies. Because whether it's Africa or India, many of these immigrants may enjoy their new life in England, but they are often well aware of what happened to their motherlands in the past!

All that said, I forgot the most important point here - there are no stonings and rarely do we hear about honour killings where I live. Not that we are somehow superior, but I believe that most Canadian and American regions have given immigrants more space than in the nations of Europe, where most people...even the liberals, are obsessed with what constitutes their national identities.

Whilst I agree, there should be no superiority at all, the very problem with extremism In our schools, Is that one religion, Is seen as superior to Christianity, or any other religion. That's where the problem lies. When children are preached to about white prostitutes and told Jesus dolls are banned etc, there's your superiority.

I do see what the author of that article Is getting at. In recent decades we have seen culture In our society that we have never seen before. Acid attacks, arranged forced marriages, female genital mutilation, birth defects from first cousin marriages, honour killings, women traeated as second rate under Sharia law etc. Aspects of a culture most Westerners find abhorrent, so It's fair to say as a progressive Western society who frowns upon such practices, that our culture could be deemed superior simply for being more civilised.

The problems come when you take two cultures diverse and diametrically opposed and expect those cultures to co-exist side by side. For that to happen, one culture has to yield. Either the superior culture ( If we can call It that ) loses It's progression of civilisation or the opposing culture steps up to the superior.

In the main, most Muslims In the UK step up. The problem comes from radical extremists who wish the host country to abandon law and culture to accommodate culture that Is considered unacceptable by Western standards and live by 7th century preachings.
Again, I'm wondering why relations between Muslim minorities and the majority culture in Canada (and most of the U.S. believe it or not) appear to be better than in England, Sweden, France and Germany! Are the Muslims different there than the ones who move to North America? Or is the host nation itself the source of the problems? Most of the horrors you list that Muslims engage in I know for fact are not part of Islamic law or from verses in the Quran. Many of these practices like FGM predate the rise of Islam, and have been adopted in some East African Christian societies. Honour killings are not lawful in most Muslim nations today; the question is whether the man or men doing the killing are powerful enough to intimidate local authorities.

Let me give you an example of how a contentious social issue involving Muslims...especially Muslim women was handled in Canada...Ontario to be specific - McGuinty government rules out use of sharia law

If I had a bit more time, I could look up other links on the issue of our provincial government abolishing recognition of Sharia AND Orthodox Jewish tribunals for settling family law disputes out of court. But, the lesson here is that back before the issue was settled, the Government was originally going to allow an expansion of their privileges, until they were hit by a full-frontal assault from Muslim women's groups, who declared that they were not going to live under unfair marriage and divorce laws in their new homeland!

At the time, conservatives were salivating as they thought they had a hot issue to demagogue, especially after a former female NDP Attorney General and a prominent feminist leader approved of the idea. But, when word of the original decision went public, they receive a backlash....not from native dogooders, like today's self-righteous Neocons who want to "free" Afghan women from tyranny....no it came right from within their own communities, and that's exactly how this sort of issue should be dealt with. Because if there was outside pressure being applied, the majority of Muslim women might have seen all of the outside interest and concern as an attack on their community itself, and rallied around their patriarchal Muslim clerics. Instead they confronted their leaders and made them back down on the issue.
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But Is It really all no problem In Canada?

Guest Column: Canada's Growing Islamic Radicalization a Warning Sign :: The Investigative Project on Terrorism

Migration in Canada

I can't load every link but It appears Canada Is not unsimilar to the UK.
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Oscar Namechange;1457941 wrote: But Is It really all no problem In Canada?

Guest Column: Canada's Growing Islamic Radicalization a Warning Sign :: The Investigative Project on Terrorism
First off, I never said there's no such thing as a terrorist threat in Canada! My objections are the use of the Muslim terrorist threat against the public....as Canada under Conservative Government seems to be trying to catch up with the slide towards fascism that has overtaken the U.S..

Locally where I live...the city of Hamilton...a few miles down the highway from Toronto...the most serious terrorist attacks since 9-11, have come from anti-Muslim conspiracy activists who:

1. firebombed and destroyed priceless art work and religious relics at a Hindu Temple shortly after 9-11...the vigilante wasn't aware that Hindus are not Muslims!

2. an attempted firebombing of the main Hamilton mosque several years back.

We haven't had Muslim terrorists blowing up buildings or conducting terrorist attacks in our vicinity; and what the navel-gazing conspiracy crowd forgets every time is that minority groups who are the subject of suspicion and hostility are the most likely victims of terrorism or crime in general; but those aren't the stories that get covered by today's Neocons, who after floundering for a few years after the demise of the Soviet Union, finally found their replacement visceral foreign threat in Muslims and their religion, such as:

The first thing I do when I see a name like "The Investigative Project on Terrorism" is see if their about page tells who runs the site (Steve Emerson), and see if the group or the leaders have a page at Sourcewatch.



As soon as I seen the name "Steve Emerson," I had an idea of what they're all about. Because Emerson is one of many crisis trolls who sprouted up in the immediate aftermath of 9-11 to supposedly inform the public about terrorism and Muslims and Muslim terrorism etc....no surprise that Emerson...the claimed security expert...and apparently funded enough to turn it into a lucrative full time job, has his own page - Steven Emerson - SourceWatch Emerson is best known for the inflammatory documentary movie - Jihad In America, which contends that at least half of the mosques in the U.S. are filled with terrorist sleeper cells just waiting to strike and bring the Islamic Caliphate to America. This drivel is most noted in the news because of the scandal involved with the New York Police Department demanding that all of their officers watch the movie and apply it as a reference source.

Prior to 9-11, guys like Emerson and other anti-Islamic theorists like Robert Spencer, were having a difficult time trying to whip up hysteria and draw attention to their cause. Emerson is most notable for a badly backfired claim back in the 90's, when the truck bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building turned out to be an act of domestic right wing terrorism....and not foreign Muslims. If it wasn't for 9-11, Emerson would have just been another mid-level newspaper reporter out of a job, as so many other reporters have lost jobs across America with the closing of so many local daily newspapers!

Some....make that most of the terrorist plots and trials uncovered by police and secret police in Canada and the U.S. carry along a disturbing trend in the subplot. That being that so many of these plots feature the police informants in the middle of recruiting, acquiring weapons and materials and funding etc., until they ring for the authorities to pick them up and inform the media. The Toronto 18 mentioned first in the article, is a case in point, because so much of the contentious issues and disputed testimonies of that trial surrounded how serious the plots were until that informer arrived on the scene. Civil rights activists in the U.S. are getting worried in recent years about this trend towards using entrapment to catch terrorist plotters, since in the American example (and no doubt coming our way in Canada also) what gets used against the Muslims, can just as easily be applied to entrap "terrorist plotters" in the environmental and social activist movements. Aside from using entrapment to shut down antigovernment groups that the state doesn't want to hear from, the plots provide convenient stories of successes to justify further increases in spending on security and unraveling of privacy and civil rights of the majority.

When the government gets in the business of playing along with terror plots, it's not just justice that suffers – but our safety

by Karen Greenberg



Migration in Canada

I can't load every link but It appears Canada Is not unsimilar to the UK.


I didn't say things are perfect here! But the changes to immigration laws and requirements under the Conservative Government, are changing the game from what I described earlier, which was an exploitive system, but not as bad as what Conservatives have been putting together in their "reforms" of immigration.

And the stories are no different from Muslims as other immigrants. Years ago, when I suffered extensive burns from a workplace accident, my physiotherapist talked about some of his personal story - being that he was already a fully qualified MD in India before leaving for Canada, but most of his credentials weren't recognized here so that he could practice medicine as a doctor. So, instead he had to rush through the physiotherapy program and work on getting his credits towards a full degree in medicine on a part time basis. Needless to say, he wasn't happy about being misinformed about what it would take and how long it would take to become a doctor in Canada. So, I'm not surprised that Canada, like the U.S., takes advantage of immigrants moving here from foreign lands.

Back to my point about what a bad religion Islam is - if England, Sweden or Canada or the United States etc. really believe that the religion itself is incorrigible and incompatible with their nations, why are they accepting Muslim immigrants? And now that they are here, what are you going to do with them? That's the question that all of these Islamophobe sites like Emerson's, never get around to answering.
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recovering conservative;1458004 wrote:

Back to my point about what a bad religion Islam is - if England, Sweden or Canada or the United States etc. really believe that the religion itself is incorrigible and incompatible with their nations, why are they accepting Muslim immigrants? And now that they are here, what are you going to do with them? That's the question that all of these Islamophobe sites like Emerson's, never get around to answering.


That was Interesting reading.

The answer to that Is very difficult to answer. Frankly, I don't think leaders and politicians have a clue either. Even If we shut the Immigration doors now, It's really too late due to birth rates outnumbering birth rates In the Indigenous,

The BNP far right policy should they ever get power, Is to repatriate Immigrants to their country of birth with financial help for them to do that. If that sounds repugnant to anyone, then remember It wasn't that long ago Gordon Brown's Labour government were proposing the same thing.
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Oscar Namechange;1458006 wrote: That was Interesting reading.
Thank you. As a general rule, I refrain from entering long-running discussions unless I think I have something new or different.



The answer to that Is very difficult to answer. Frankly, I don't think leaders and politicians have a clue either. Even If we shut the Immigration doors now, It's really too late due to birth rates outnumbering birth rates In the Indigenous,

The BNP far right policy should they ever get power, Is to repatriate Immigrants to their country of birth with financial help for them to do that. If that sounds repugnant to anyone, then remember It wasn't that long ago Gordon Brown's Labour government were proposing the same thing.


I'm back to the beginning - asking whether most British view Muslims as an out-group that will never blend in (and whether most British Muslims view it the same from the inside), or whether they truly believe that Muslim immigrants are just another group of immigrants that will eventually become part of the cultural fabric of England.

My suspicions are that, aside from politicians of all stripes and their spokesmen, the majority view Muslims as a threat varying from hostile threat to cultural threat that will never become British. If that's the thinking that predominates, I have no doubt that Muslims get the vibe from the white majority that they will never be fully acceptable, unless they abandon their religion. Strangely enough, this mirrors similar thinking that most of Christian Europe had about their Jewish minorities up until the past century!

Over a period of centuries, the Jews of Europe were described as insular, secretive, antiChristian, who never intermarry or consider the Christian Gospel. That was still the general thinking into the 20th century; but a strange thing happened in America: during the 1920's and 30's, the Jews that had become a large segment of the immigrant population of the Northeast...especially NYC, did not face much consternation because of their religion.

Instead, most New Yorkers didn't make much distinction between the Jews, or the Italians, Polish, or the Irish from previous waves of immigration...if they had hostile views of immigration in general, they made no distinction between Jews and the other immigrants; while if they were 2nd or 3rd generation in America, they harboured recent cultural memories of the problems their parents or grandparents told them about, and were more inclined to give the new arrivals some slack, and time to become adjusted to life in the new world.

So Jews in America, start taking an active part in defining American culture itself....which unlike British, German or French culture, was still largely ill-defined and malleable. So, especially the Jews who learned about the new movie-making industry and started making their own movies and starting their own movie studios like MGM, started telling the rest of America what it meant to be an American. And along the way, Jews started intermarrying with non-Jews (something that never happened in Europe), and before you know it, the Jewish cultural crisis in America becomes fear that American Jews will lose their Jewish identity/ not persecution and the fear of genocide or being driven into exile...yet again!

* I should note that I am talking about the majority Jewish experience in America (Reform and Conservative), not the small Orthodox Jewish sects, that, even in cities like New York, remain insular, separate little fiefdoms that wall themselves off from the rest of the world like typical fundamentalist cults. Not everybody will blend in, but a real multicultural society should be able to tolerate a handful of separatists...if they are not trying to attack their neighbours.

I'm not saying that the experiences of Muslims in Europe (including Russia...let's not forget their growing fascism and white supremacist movements) will turn out as cultural absorption in a few generations; but the degree to which they blend in/or don't blend in, will depend more on how they are received in their new homeland, than whether their views on religion match the checklist that the authorities determine to be "Islamic extremism." When times are good, people are less extreme in their thinking and actions/ and when times are bad, there will be a tendency to become more radical and hostile. The last thing that is going to fix the problem are non-Muslim outsiders telling Muslims how they should worship or what they should believe about their religion. Any real reforms will have to come from within a community, not from the outside.

It does happen, sometimes after a great deal of bloodshed, like the 30 Years War during the Reformation - until then, both the Catholic Church and the breakaway Protestants had determined that no accommodations could be made, and the other side had to be eradicated. Eventually, they found a way to say: we're right/ they're wrong, but let's not discuss it in public....and that's probably the starting off point for secularism.

And, speaking of secularism, as I learn a little bit about the "UK Free Schools" movement in England, I am more resolved that we have done the right thing in Ontario, and most of Canada, by blocking the Neoliberal strategy bent on privatizing public education! There are always problems with costly bureaucracy and negative stories pulled up about test scores and subject plans, but the alternative to a free, universal public education is backfiring badly in both the United States with their drive towards "Charter Schooling," and these "Free Schools" in England!

The big glaring issue that the propaganda from the U.S. never dealt with was that....even if they could promise more efficient and cost-effective education, the privatization would still lead inevitably to the balkanization of the school system! Recently, there have been a number of stories from the U.S. about how the trend to charter schooling and the corresponding drop in funding for public schools (which are funded at the local level) has led to a re-segregation in America....where the gains that were made to integrate schools beginning during the Civil Rights era of the 60's have all been lost; and now American schools are more segregated than ever!

One of my newsfeeds that I check daily is from RT (mostly to see what the other side in the looming World War is thinking), and they posted a couple of interesting stories on this free schools issue today:

Muslims ‘could be banned’ from becoming UK school governors

and

UK bans teaching of creationism theory in free schools

Seems to me that these are both problems created by busting up the public school system in the first place! But I haven't read much from UK news media connecting the Muslim problems and the fundamentalist Christian problems with the fact that they broke an education system, rather than fix any problems it may have had. A universal education system would be the first thing that you need, if you want a multicultural society...otherwise you will eventually have a BNP or similar extremist government in power that will begin ethnic cleansing of minorities that they deem as hostile.
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In my opinion to punish someone who doesn't wish to go through the motions of praying to a God that he is not a believer of is inexcusable.
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Vera;1496240 wrote: In my opinion to punish someone who doesn't wish to go through the motions of praying to a God that he is not a believer of is inexcusable.
Resurrection of a very old thread initiated by a known former (banned) Far Right propagandist member.
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It was wrong to ban oscar, she was a lot of fun & it was much more interesting here with her present. IMO.
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AnneBoleyn;1496333 wrote: It was wrong to ban oscar, she was a lot of fun & it was much more interesting here with her present. IMO.


I beg to differ.

The threats she made against me, personally and the language she used to make those threats was, is and will always remain, unacceptable.
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I don't know anything about threats she made against you. Care to elaborate? If not, that's fine.
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AnneBoleyn;1496360 wrote: I don't know anything about threats she made against you. Care to elaborate? If not, that's fine.


No, such things are not for public consumption - suffice it to say that Oscar is persona non grata.
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How about a pm?
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AnneBoleyn;1496432 wrote: How about a pm?


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