Children punished for refusing to pray to Allah

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Oscar Namechange
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Children punished for refusing to pray to Allah

Post by Oscar Namechange »

Two schoolboys were given detention after refusing to kneel down and 'pray to Allah' during a religious education lesson.

Parents were outraged that the two boys from year seven (11 to 12-year-olds) were punished for not wanting to take part in the practical demonstration of how Allah is worshipped.

They said forcing their children to take part in the exercise at Alsager High School, near Stoke-on-Trent - which included wearing Muslim headgear - was a breach of their human rights.

A statement from Cheshire County Council on behalf of the school read: "The headteacher David Black contacted this authority immediately complaints were received.

"Enquiries are being made into the circumstances as a matter of urgency and all parents will be informed accordingly.

"Educating children in the beliefs of different faith is part of the diversity curriculum on the basis that knowledge is essential to understanding.

"We accept that such teaching is to be conducted with some sense of sensitivity.





Read more: Schoolboys punished with detention for refusing to kneel down and pray to Allah | Mail Online

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I beg to differ.

There has been no tolerance shown here, The Children have been punished,

In place of the tolerance, knowledge and understanding they hoped to achieve, they have Instead created anger, upset and resentment.

When are people like this going to take on board that this Is precisely what creates racial tensions and another vote for the Far Right... Muppets :-5
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Children punished for refusing to pray to Allah

Post by LarsMac »

Oscar Namechange;1456598 wrote: Two schoolboys were given detention after refusing to kneel down and 'pray to Allah' during a religious education lesson.

Parents were outraged that the two boys from year seven (11 to 12-year-olds) were punished for not wanting to take part in the practical demonstration of how Allah is worshipped.

They said forcing their children to take part in the exercise at Alsager High School, near Stoke-on-Trent - which included wearing Muslim headgear - was a breach of their human rights.

A statement from Cheshire County Council on behalf of the school read: "The headteacher David Black contacted this authority immediately complaints were received.

"Enquiries are being made into the circumstances as a matter of urgency and all parents will be informed accordingly.

"Educating children in the beliefs of different faith is part of the diversity curriculum on the basis that knowledge is essential to understanding.

"We accept that such teaching is to be conducted with some sense of sensitivity.





Read more: Schoolboys punished with detention for refusing to kneel down and pray to Allah | Mail Online

Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

I beg to differ.

There has been no tolerance shown here, The Children have been punished,

In place of the tolerance, knowledge and understanding they hoped to achieve, they have Instead created anger, upset and resentment.

When are people like this going to take on board that this Is precisely what creates racial tensions and another vote for the Far Right... Muppets :-5


Well, they got a first-hand lesson in how any gummint endorsed religion might play out. Though detention is rather light. in some counties, a good caning, or worse might await them.

Even as recently as my own childhood, a good whipping could ensue from neglecting/refusing to participate in certain Christian-based rituals at schools in the US.



I think the teacher in this case may have taught more than he/she bargained for.
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Children punished for refusing to pray to Allah

Post by Oscar Namechange »

LarsMac;1456599 wrote: Well, they got a first-hand lesson in how any gummint endorsed religion might play out. Though detention is rather light. in some counties, a good caning, or worse might await them.

Even as recently as my own childhood, a good whipping could ensue from neglecting/refusing to participate in certain Christian-based rituals at schools in the US.



I think the teacher in this case may have taught more than he/she bargained for. I've said this before In other threads but for Multiculturalism to be accepted In any country, there has to be tolerance. These children were shown no tolerance.

Are the children taught how Hindu's or Sikh's pray ? I doubt It. Were the Muslim children told they must enter a Christian church to learn how the majority pray ? I doubt It.

The very least the children should have been offered the choice of wther they wished to participate. They should have been given that option along with an option to just observe the Muslim pupils.

I wouldn't be surprised If this school was Involved In the Trojan horse scandal In this country.

Trojan horse row: Labour calls for new Ofsted school inspection criteria | Education | theguardian.com
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Children punished for refusing to pray to Allah

Post by AnneBoleyn »

That's just plain nuts. Do the parents have recourse in suing the school, making a court case out of this? It's so outrageous, has Britain lost it's communal mind? That teacher would be fired here, you betcha.

eta--no one should be forced to pray, period, end of story. And the act of prayer is not a cultural lesson, it teaches nothing. A film could have been shown.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

AnneBoleyn;1456607 wrote: That's just plain nuts. Do the parents have recourse in suing the school, making a court case out of this? It's so outrageous, has Britain lost it's communal mind? That teacher would be fired here, you betcha.

eta--no one should be forced to pray, period, end of story. And the act of prayer is not a cultural lesson, it teaches nothing. A film could have been shown.


I hope the parents sue, I really do.

How can tolerance, assimilation and Integration be taught In a Multicultural society now two children have been taught that If they do not bow down to Islam, they will be punished.

I bet also, the children were not taught that women can not pray with the men In the Mosques. They are confined to a women only back room.

The teacher In this case Is a liability and should lose her job.
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Children punished for refusing to pray to Allah

Post by Bruv »

As always I try to take another viewpoint.

Why should two 11-12 year olds refuse to pretend to pray to Allah?

Are their parents strict Christians with deeply held beliefs, or is it possible the boys, sitting together, so bolder, was down to anti Muslim chat at home ?
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Post by Bruv »

Researching a little more.........why bring this up now ?

Linky



Another Linky

It all happened back in 2008
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Post by jones jones »

Religion in any form whatsoever should neither be taught nor enforced as part of any schools curriculum. Those dark days are or should be long past in the 21st century.
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Children punished for refusing to pray to Allah

Post by LarsMac »

Bruv;1456614 wrote: Researching a little more.........why bring this up now ?

Linky



Another Linky

It all happened back in 2008


Funny. The Mail Article had a similar date. Wonder why THEY brought it up, now.

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Post by Bruv »

LarsMac;1456620 wrote: Funny. The Mail Article had a similar date. Wonder why THEY brought it up, now.

Someone is fanning flames of discontent?


So your are an old cynic too then ?
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Children punished for refusing to pray to Allah

Post by LarsMac »

Bruv;1456623 wrote: So your are an old cynic too then ?


Er, ah, harummpfh!!

I am NOT old!!!
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Children punished for refusing to pray to Allah

Post by Bruv »

LarsMac;1456625 wrote: Er, ah, harummpfh!!

I am NOT old!!!


Me neither, the grand kids think we are though dont they ?
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Post by Snowfire »

So what IS the relevance of a 6 year old Daily Mail article ?

You surely must be hunting down stuff like this like a pig looking for truffles
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Children punished for refusing to pray to Allah

Post by LarsMac »

Bruv;1456627 wrote: Me neither, the grand kids think we are though dont they ?


Eh. They're young. What do THEY know?
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Children punished for refusing to pray to Allah

Post by AnneBoleyn »

Bruv;1456612 wrote: As always I try to take another viewpoint.

Why should two 11-12 year olds refuse to pretend to pray to Allah?

Are their parents strict Christians with deeply held beliefs, or is it possible the boys, sitting together, so bolder, was down to anti Muslim chat at home ?


Firstly, it's offensive to Muslims to take Allah so callously as to pretend. It is not being anti-Muslim. NO ONE should be forced to pray at a school. It teaches nothing. The teacher is a moron & I believe should be fired sooner than later!!!!
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Bruv;1456614 wrote: Researching a little more.........why bring this up now ?

Linky





Another Linky

It all happened back in 2008
Then WHY is it still happening?????????????
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

LarsMac;1456620 wrote: Funny. The Mail Article had a similar date. Wonder why THEY brought it up, now.

Someone is fanning flames of discontent?


You mean it's not a new story?

eta--I'm really in a rush, sorry, so can't check but are you saying the story Oscar linked to is being re-hashed & it's the same story repeated, or did it happen again, now?
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Post by LarsMac »

AnneBoleyn;1456633 wrote: You mean it's not a new story?

eta--I'm really in a rush, sorry, so can't check but are you saying the story Oscar linked to is being re-hashed & it's the same story repeated, or did it happen again, now?


I you look at the link she provided, the article shows:

By DAILY MAIL REPORTER

UPDATED: 05:30 EST, 4 July 2008

I missed it the first time I read it.

Oscar may have, as well.

Chances are, Oscar got a link to it from a "friend" in Facebook, and decided to pass it on to her friends here, without seeing the date.
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Post by Bruv »

AnneBoleyn;1456631 wrote: Firstly, it's offensive to Muslims to take Allah so callously as to pretend. It is not being anti-Muslim. NO ONE should be forced to pray at a school. It teaches nothing. The teacher is a moron & I believe should be fired sooner than later!!!!
Don't you pick on me .........Im not Russian.:-2

The Teacher was probably a Christian, her name is English sounding, she was a religious studies Teacher, she teaches about religion, thats (was) her job.

The children could have opted out of religious studies (I did at that age)

The Teacher was in the wrong, but she was teaching her class by dressing up and going through the motions of a muslim prayer.

The children were possibly taught at home to dislike Islam, I believe their reaction was over the top, and not suitable for any 11-12 boy.

AnneBoleyn;1456632 wrote: Then WHY is it still happening?????????????


This story is old I don't know if it's still happening......do you.
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Post by gmc »

Bruv;1456612 wrote: As always I try to take another viewpoint.

Why should two 11-12 year olds refuse to pretend to pray to Allah?

Are their parents strict Christians with deeply held beliefs, or is it possible the boys, sitting together, so bolder, was down to anti Muslim chat at home ?


Why the hell should they not? How about because even at that tender age a semi-intelligent indvidual can see it for the nonsense it is. If you can acceopt that childfren can believe in god at that age then equally you must accept that they can also make the same decision not to believe. No religion has the right to force children to conform be it christrian or muslim or worshippers of the pink laughing god in the sky. As it happens I object to catholic schools just as much as I do any other religious school christian islamic or pagan we quite simply should not have them. Any child has the right to reject religion. Speaking personally at that age I had already made up my mind about the existence otherwise, basically if he did exist he was an uncaring bastard I wanted nothing to do with I still remember the shock on my sunday school teachers face when I expressed that sentiment at around ten years of age (obviously the words were a bit different) she brought in the heavy guns in the form of the minister whose response was to encourage me to read more and also research the history of the bible.

What is shocking about this story is not the children refusing to take part but a teacher who saw nothing wrong in punishing them. You get islamic bigots as well as christian ones
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Post by Bruv »

gmc;1456636 wrote: Why the hell should they not?


Because they were in a religious studies lesson.

I never went to a single one after the age of 11, I opted out, they could have done so too.

It's too late to decide which religions you want to opt out of during the lesson.
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Post by LarsMac »

gmc;1456636 wrote: Why the hell should they not? How about because even at that tender age a semi-intelligent indvidual can see it for the nonsense it is. If you can acceopt that childfren can believe in god at that age then equally you must accept that they can also make the same decision not to believe. No religion has the right to force children to conform be it christrian or muslim or worshippers of the pink laughing god in the sky. As it happens I object to catholic schools just as much as I do any other religious school christian islamic or pagan we quite simply should not have them. Any child has the right to reject religion. Speaking personally at that age I had already made up my mind about the existence otherwise, basically if he did exist he was an uncaring bastard I wanted nothing to do with I still remember the shock on my sunday school teachers face when I expressed that sentiment at around ten years of age (obviously the words were a bit different) she brought in the heavy guns in the form of the minister whose response was to encourage me to read more and also research the history of the bible.

What is shocking about this story is not the children refusing to take part but a teacher who saw nothing wrong in punishing them. You get islamic bigots as well as christian ones


Bruv;1456637 wrote: Because they were in a religious studies lesson.

I never went to a single one after the age of 11, I opted out, they could have done so too.

It's too late to decide which religions you want to opt out of during the lesson.


Some interesting thoughts come to mind from all of this.

It would be interesting to find the teacher and these two students, and get a feel for what the whole thing was really all about then.

What was the teacher actually trying to do at the time? What did it seem like from the boys' perspective?

What was the final take away for them?

And was this a class the students signed up for voluntarily, or was it a mandatory class? What was the actual point of the curriculum?

We know nothing of these questions, and can only speculate over the event, and examine it through our own personal filters.
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Post by Snowfire »

Any news reported in the Daily Mail will be stretched further than Jackie Stallone's face
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Bruv;1456614 wrote: Researching a little more.........why bring this up now ?

Linky



Another Linky

It all happened back in 2008 That Is entirely my fault, That'll teach me to take an article from another site and posting a thread while In a hurry.

My apologies, I did not check the date of the article which I usually do.

This however, Is recent

http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/05/07/th ... suspended/
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Post by FourPart »

When I was at school we were herded into assembly at the beginning of every day & made to sing hymns & say prayers. Even then I resented the way things were being forced on us in this way. I always saw it (and still do) as an infringement on Civil Liberties, and offensive to those of true faith. I understand that fortunately this is no longer the case in standard State schools (independently operated Religious schools are bound to have different rules, though).

I have no problem with kids being taught about the beliefs of other cultures. That is all part & parcel of a multi-cultural tolerance & such awareness should be encouraged. However, to punish someone who doesn't wish to go through the motions of praying to a God that he is not a believer of is inexcusable. After all, if he was of the Christian / Jewish faith is there not the commandment that goes "Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me" & "Thou Shalt Not Adore False Idols" & such like? Surely being made to go through these motions would be a breach of those commandments of his own faith.

Then there is the racial aspect which I can't help wondering about. If the situation were reversed & a Muslim, Sikh or Hindu, etc. refused to comply when told to makes prayers to the Christian idols (which, although 'forbidden' by the church continue to exist in the form of the Crucifix with or with Chist upon it), would they have been punished for refusing to do so? A case of "All are born equal, but some are more equal than others".
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Post by gmc »

Bruv;1456637 wrote: Because they were in a religious studies lesson.

I never went to a single one after the age of 11, I opted out, they could have done so too.

It's too late to decide which religions you want to opt out of during the lesson.


Don't know if it's still the case but in scottish schools religious education used to be the only compulsory subject on the curriculum, you couldn't opt out in theory although there were ways around if if you were bloody minded enough, there used o be theoretically non denominational assemblies as well in the non catholic shools they were basiclly protestant. Sectarianism was and is still a major problem caused by the religious who insist on seperate schools and keep it alive despite the fact most people think it ridiculous and want them to end. The sight of five year olds singing the sash and learning bigotry at their parents knee is something I don't find cute, not saying we should forget the history but yo need to teach children to think for themselves not punish them when they do and refuse to conform.

Religion is a bit different from the normal school subjects - what other subject forces you to accept the basic premise that an imaginary being exists god exists and all else is a discussion about how you worship.

I have no problem with reliious studies, indeed I think it esntial but we do sem t b in the midst of a religious revival both islamic and christian that is likely to have us all at ech other throat if it continues. For a teacher to punsh somone for refusing to take part in a silly ritual is wrong.

If they had refused to take part in a may day or a beltane festival because of it's pagan connotations would you think it reasonable they be punished or would you argue they had a right to object?
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Post by Bruv »

Can I have a second bite of this cherry?

Firstly I vote we put JJ in charge of the book burnings.

Next...... what I think happens in those lessons........

Last week they passed some rosaries around and taught the kids that passing the beads through your fingers is a sort of prayer.

The week before a turban was used while teaching about Sikhism, the fashion in the playground all that week was to wrap scarves around heads.

Before that the teacher brought in a Tibetan prayer wheel she picked up while trekking, the children thought they ought to rattle just like their young brother's and sister's did, so the noises in the classroom that day were.......strange and loud.

It looked like a measles epidemic the week the lesson was about Hinduism.(The red spot? Bindi?)

At no time was there any objections to these other religious traditions from the kids.

At no time were the kids asked to convert or that the other traditions were better, it was a lesson to show the differences between religious practices.....thats all.

I think that objecting to any of these lessons or specially one in particular, is empowering that religion.

Islam is JUST another religion.

@gmc Are you sure ?, English and Maths ought to be compulsory before religion or at least as well as.

I know when I went up to 'Big school' my parents opted me out of assembly and all religious studies, these kids parents could have done the same.

Two leery 11-12 year olds kicking off about Islam during the lesson is bad, the punishment was not worthy of the crime.

I wonder who is pushing this agenda, is it the anti or the pro Islamist, there is only one winner and that is Islam.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Putting aside the old story of the children who were punished, the Trojan Horse scandal Is very real and Is happening right now.

Hardline Islamic extremists have Infiltrated 21 schools that they know of to date. The scandal Is that the government was alerted to this 4 years ago and did nothing.

The report will recommend that the school's management must 'urgently improve systems for safeguarding students' through the use of the Home Office's anti-extremism policy, Prevent.

Last night, it was revealed the school’s website describes how a lesson is devoted to jihad under a section on ‘Living The Muslim Life’.

Pupils study topics such as ‘what is a just war?’, ‘when can Muslims take up arms?’ and ‘conditions of jihad’.



Read more: Trojan Horse school not doing enough to combat extremism | Mail Online

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Post by Snowfire »

Depends entirely on ones definition of the words/phrases used.

To your average Daily Mail reader, the word Jihad has frightening, extremist, militaristic connotations. Whereas the true meaning of the word is a perfectly legitimate subject for Muslims to discuss.

Why wouldn't children of any faith, or indeed, non faith discuss "what is a just war". A perfectly legitimate conversation.

While I understand and agree that these schools are ripe for Islamists to infiltrate, I just cannot get to grips with anything the Mail has to report. They churn out scare mongering fodder and pander to Mr and Mrs Angry of Tunbridge Wells' prejudices.

They even taint the fish and chips they wrap
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

The you are living In another world.

'Trojan Horse' schools: Birmingham City Council tries to blame the Telegraph for revealing the scandal – Telegraph Blogs

Operation Trojan Horse: Now 25 Birmingham schools under investigation for alleged Islamic extremist takeover plot - Education News - Education - The Independent

Theresa May is right – Michael Gove is culpable over the Trojan Horse affair | Anne Perkins | Comment is free | theguardian.com
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Post by Snowfire »

Oscar Namechange;1456692 wrote: The you are living In another world.

'Trojan Horse' schools: Birmingham City Council tries to blame the Telegraph for revealing the scandal – Telegraph Blogs

Operation Trojan Horse: Now 25 Birmingham schools under investigation for alleged Islamic extremist takeover plot - Education News - Education - The Independent

Theresa May is right – Michael Gove is culpable over the Trojan Horse affair | Anne Perkins | Comment is free | theguardian.com


You yet again, it seems, failed to read my post. There is nothing I wrote, that would suggest I live in an alternative world to you. I agreed that these schools were ripe for Islamists to infiltrate.

How about discussing my points about the definitions of what The Daily Scare peddle as extremism but are legitimate subjects for anyone to discuss.
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Post by Bruv »

There seems to be some desperation to get some digs into the Muslim population.

So if we all accept that Muslims are affectively either preying on white girls or conspiring to take over our schools.........what have we to worry about?

The police are now fully involved investigating the sex story, and the Education Department has got the school take over covered........or is this all part of the right wing push for power?
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Post by Snowfire »

Snowfire;1456690 wrote: Depends entirely on ones definition of the words/phrases used.

To your average Daily Mail reader, the word Jihad has frightening, extremist, militaristic connotations. Whereas the true meaning of the word is a perfectly legitimate subject for Muslims to discuss.

Why wouldn't children of any faith, or indeed, non faith discuss "what is a just war". A perfectly legitimate conversation.

While I understand and agree that these schools are ripe for Islamists to infiltrate, I just cannot get to grips with anything the Mail has to report. They churn out scare mongering fodder and pander to Mr and Mrs Angry of Tunbridge Wells' prejudices.

They even taint the fish and chips they wrap


Jihad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The term 'jihad' has accrued both violent and non-violent meanings. It can simply mean striving to live a moral and virtuous life, spreading and defending Islam as well as fighting injustice and oppression, among other things.[20] The relative importance of these two forms of jihad is a matter of controversy. A poll by Gallup showed that a "significant majority" of Muslim Indonesians define the term to mean "sacrificing one's life for the sake of Islam/God/a just cause" or "fighting against the opponents of Islam". In Lebanon, Kuwait, Jordan, and Morocco, the majority used the term to mean "duty toward God", a "divine duty", or a "worship of God", with no militaristic connotations. Other responses referenced, in descending order of prevalence:

"A commitment to hard work" and "achieving one's goals in life"

"Struggling to achieve a noble cause"

"Promoting peace, harmony or cooperation, and assisting others"

"Living the principles of Islam"[21]






As I said. It depends entirely on ones definition of Jihad. Most are completely different that the Daily Mail's
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Post by High Threshold »

Oscar Namechange;1456598 wrote: Two schoolboys were given detention after refusing to kneel down and 'pray to Allah' during a religious education lesson.




I was given no weekly allowance if I missed Sunday church services when I was a boy. I call that punishment.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

I think when we look back on religious education when we were In school. Is that most of us went to school In the 60's and 70's.

The big difference was during those times, we only had first generation Immigrants. Migrants were far far lower In numbers so back then, we were predominantly a Christian and Catholic country. The majority was Christian so It was normal for Christianity to be taught In schools back then.

Immigration has brought millions to this country since then and In some cities, white Christians are the minority.

The numbers and the demographics have drastically changed since the days we were In school and now we a country that is diverse, religion should be eased out of the curriculum In schools.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Post by Betty Boop »

Oscar Namechange;1456727 wrote: I think when we look back on religious education when we were In school. Is that most of us went to school In the 60's and 70's.

The big difference was during those times, we only had first generation Immigrants. Migrants were far far lower In numbers so back then, we were predominantly a Christian and Catholic country. The majority was Christian so It was normal for Christianity to be taught In schools back then.

Immigration has brought millions to this country since then and In some cities, white Christians are the minority.

The numbers and the demographics have drastically changed since the days we were In school and now we a country that is diverse, religion should be eased out of the curriculum In schools.


Really?? Nooooo! I think I'd rather my children learnt about all the different kinds of religion in a balanced manner therefore leading to adults who are tolerant of other peoples religious beliefs.
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Post by High Threshold »

Betty Boop;1456759 wrote: ... I think I'd rather my children learnt about all the different kinds of religion in a balanced manner .....


Bring your family to Sweden.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

I was so lucky. Although my parents were Jewish, from Immigrant parents & relatives many of whom were or had been either Orthodox or Hasidic, my parents were Agnostic, although they didn't label themselves as such. My mother had a saying "We're Not Religious, But we Know WHO we are." Only on Yom Kippur did my parents pray for their dead fathers. Religion was never pushed. Of course, they had Daughters. I'm sure a son would have been forced to take the lessons & be Bar Mitvahed. On the Holidays we would go to see my mother's mother at her Orthodox Shul, where she would faithfully follow her upbringing. We celebrated other Jewish holidays & when I asked for a Xmas tree I was told No. That is Not our Religion. It was Judaism that was celebrated, the race of my people, our trials & joys & pride. Not God.

We ate bacon at home, & it was so funny when we looked out the window & saw Grandma coming! We'd open all the windows & wave our hands to attempt to get the smell out, which of course we couldn't. Grandma never said a word.

In the third grade a friend told me of Atheism. I didn't know you Couldn't Believe in God! I told my parents I was an atheist & they never said anything.

When I was little my dad would tell me bible stories, which I did for my son, because I didn't want him to be ignorant of the world. My grandma would tell me a lot about Judaism, but never, never pushed.

In 4th grade I joined religious studies, which meant on Wednesdays you could leave 2 hours early to be picked up by a rabbi or nun & taken to the place of worship. The Jewish kids went to my Grandma's ultra-orthodox shul, not the large conservative temple next door. I felt revulsion when a friend said her mother didn't buy Kosher (except for Bacon, We Did). The rabbi humiliated her. It was so wrong. After that, she, me & another friend would deliberately stay at the end of the line on the Wednesday walk to Religious Instruction, make a swift left turn & play hooky.

I am really appreciative of growing up in a home with Religious & Non-Religious Freedom. Decide for Yourself. If & When you are ever ready. Cool.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

AnneBoleyn;1456773 wrote:



I am really appreciative of growing up in a home with Religious & Non-Religious Freedom. Decide for Yourself. If & When you are ever ready. Cool. Exactly how It should be.

It's not up to schools to teach people's kids tolerance for others. That's what parents should do. Schools don't raise and mould kids. That's parents jobs.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Oscar Namechange;1456776 wrote: Exactly how It should be.

It's not up to schools to teach people's kids tolerance for others. That's what parents should do. Schools don't raise and mould kids. That's parents jobs.


Obviously I couldn't agree more. The problem started as parents taught their children less & less of everything, esp. reading skills, etc. Going into the reasons is for another thread. So the school started picking up where the parents left off, but it has gone WAY TOO FAR!!!
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Post by High Threshold »

AnneBoleyn;1456773 wrote: Although my parents were Jewish ..... they were Agnostic.


Yet "they" all went to the gas chamber. Is man much less ignorant than that today?
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Before I leave for awhile, HT, I wanted to respond to your gas chamber comment. I always knew, instinctively (& I knew of the Holocaust as soon as I was born & pondered it often) that being religious had nothing to do with the camps or gassing, etc. The Crime Was Judaism, nothing else. It was Racial, not Religious.
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Post by Saint_ »

LarsMac;1456599 wrote: Well, they got a first-hand lesson in how any gummint endorsed religion might play out. .


I agree. I hear ignorant people all the time saying, "They should teach more religion in schools. Then the kids wouldn't become criminals, shooters, drug addicts, disrespectful, profane yada yada yada etc etc."

Trust me. The place for religion is in the home and the church (or mosque or whatever). Schools are for reading writing and arithmetic.
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Post by Saint_ »

AnneBoleyn;1456783 wrote: Before I leave for awhile, HT, I wanted to respond to your gas chamber comment. I always knew, instinctively (& I knew of the Holocaust as soon as I was born & pondered it often) that being religious had nothing to do with the camps or gassing, etc. The Crime Was Judaism, nothing else. It was Racial, not Religious.


Quite right. Not to hijack the thread, but I took a college class on the Holocaust and got to talk each week one-on-one with real holocaust survivors. I was surprised to learn that "pogroms" (massacres of Jewish people) had been going for centuries, just not as efficiently and organized as the Nazis did it.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Saint_;1456788 wrote: I agree. I hear ignorant people all the time saying, "They should teach more religion in schools. Then the kids wouldn't become criminals, shooters, drug addicts, disrespectful, profane yada yada yada etc etc."

Trust me. The place for religion is in the home and the church (or mosque or whatever). Schools are for reading writing and arithmetic.


Well said Saint. Schools are for education not a cop out for parents to teach their kids tolerance because they can't.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Post by LarsMac »

Oscar Namechange;1456792 wrote: Well said Saint. Schools are for education not a cop out for parents to teach their kids tolerance because they can't.


From my experience, Tolerance is not often high on the parents' priorities.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
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Post by Saint_ »

The last person who told me to teach religion at school got this answer from me:

OK. What religion should we teach? Buddhism? Hinduism? Islam? Oh, of course! “In God We Trust!” It’s got to be Christianity! Farmington is overwhelmingly Christian after all. (Although I do know a very nice Hindu family, aren't they an important part of our little town?) Fine, which version of Christianity should we teach? Lutheran? Presbyterian? Baptist? Methodist? Catholic? (It is the oldest after all) Are Mormans Christian? Are you starting to get my point? No matter what the schools did, they'd never please everybody.

Perhaps they’re worried that Christian values and morals aren’t being taught to young people. They shouldn’t worry another second. Every Farmington teacher I've ever met has modeled and practiced nothing but the best of Christian virtues: honesty, integrity, respect, and dignity. But who will teach religion if not the schools, you ask? Simple. The family and the Church. Who better to teach these things than the people that care the most about the children, their parents. Where better to learn than the Church?

The Pilgrims came to America because they didn't like their religion being controlled and dictated by the state. George Washington didn't like it. Thomas Jefferson didn't like it. Trust me, you won't like it either.
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Post by High Threshold »

AnneBoleyn;1456783 wrote: Before I leave for awhile, HT, I wanted to respond to your gas chamber comment. I always knew, instinctively (& I knew of the Holocaust as soon as I was born & pondered it often) that being religious had nothing to do with the camps or gassing, etc. The Crime Was Judaism, nothing else. It was Racial, not Religious.


Not "racial" surely. But anyway, I like to toy with pshycology. I like to consider what it would require for me to do or think in a way that would cause me to ........ whatever. Judaism isn't a race. You know that, but the Nazis may have thought it was - with eugenics and measuring skulls to determine Aryans and Slavics, etc. But the point is that (as far as I know) Hitler and his cronies weren't practising Christians, so what was their problem? And Goebbels said in one of his speeches, "We have a German, theatre, German art, German ..... " well, you know. Yes, so I guess he considered Judaism a race. Otherwise he would have realized that German citizens of the Jewish faith were also Germans. But hey, let's face it! I've met tons of Americans (maye even you) who say things like, "He's French, she's Chinese, and that guy is Jewish." And that, by the way, is how the holocaust was made easy.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

LarsMac;1456794 wrote: From my experience, Tolerance is not often high on the parents' priorities. Exactly ! Some parents think It's a duty of the school to do It all for them.

The teachers In the primary school next door to my house have been complaining for years about kids starting school at 4 and 5 years old, barely able to speak and still In nappies. Also the school has had a real serious problem with bullying and disruptive kids because some parents think schools should do their job.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Post by Betty Boop »

LarsMac;1456794 wrote: From my experience, Tolerance is not often high on the parents' priorities.


Exactly, schools need to provide balance to the homes that are deeply religious and who indoctrinate their own children to one way of life. They also need to provide education on religion to the homes where the parents just simply have no idea/don't care or are bigoted about religions.

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