Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by Ahso! »

Mickiel;1435026 wrote: Humanity turned from extinct hunter gatherers to conscious humans headed to civilization by the plan of God, and the design of God.

I think he used primordial man as a designing board.Show that to us in a biblical reference. If it's not in the bible, where did you get Primordial Man from? You keep referring to this Primordial as a "man" but doesn't the bible state rather clearly that Adam was the "first man" God created?
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by Mickiel »

Was Primordial man conscious? I think not; there is just no evidence of it, only stretched speculation and over blown trinkets.
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by Ahso! »

That's right, Mickey, just ignore relevant conversation and pretend you're a victim so you can, in your mind, get away with your bullsh!t story.
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by Mickiel »

As I mentioned in another thread, Information is already provided in our cells; its already been downloaded while we are in our mothers womb. Already inserted into our consciousness, and it is my belief that Primordial man, for whatever God's reasons were, did not have this done to him. Information is knowledge communicated or received. And humans definitely had knowledge imprinted on to our cells; a sure sign of design.
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by Ahso! »

Mickiel;1435128 wrote: As I mentioned in another thread, Information is already provided in our cells; its already been downloaded while we are in our mothers womb. Already inserted into our consciousness, and it is my belief that Primordial man, for whatever God's reasons were, did not have this done to him. Information is knowledge communicated or received. And humans definitely had knowledge imprinted on to our cells; a sure sign of design.Show us the scientific evidence. And show us where God created Primordial Man in the bible.
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by Mickiel »

Now, I want to take a turn in thread and go into what my speculations are as to why God created Primordial man; I mean for what?
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by Ahso! »

Mickiel;1435130 wrote: Now, I want to take a turn in thread and go into what my speculations are as to why God created Primordial man; I mean for what?Ah! So what you're writing is your own speculations and not anything the bible or God had led you to?
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by Ahso! »

You have no proof that primordial man even existed, isn't that correct?
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by Mickiel »

One reason why I think God created Primordial man was " First draft creation", or first stage planning. I think he actually had Adam in mind, or conscious man, but he wanted to create humans first and I think " Observe them." Not experimenting on them, but I think observation was his purpose; I just can't figure out anythingelse really, as to why. Just like when he brought the animals to Adam, " To see what he would call them", he wanted to see what humans would do with the limited qualities he installed in them.
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by Ahso! »

Mickiel;1435133 wrote: One reason why I think God created Primordial man was " First draft creation", or first stage planning. I think he actually had Adam in mind, or conscious man, but he wanted to create humans first and I think " Observe them." Not experimenting on them, but I think observation was his purpose; I just can't figure out anythingelse really, as to why. Just like when he brought the animals to Adam, " To see what he would call them", he wanted to see what humans would do with the limited qualities he installed in them.Wasn't it you who recently made a bit of a stink somewhere about "proving all things" as the bible instructs? Have you now decided to abandon that principle? You have to at lest back up what you say with bible references, don't you?
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by Mickiel »

Another reason why I think Primordial man was first created and allowed to exist for so long of " Earth Time", was the concept of " Prototype"; they were just original models , if you will; it was biology; an advanced form of design, you design a human , create them, and then keep evolving your creation " Physically first", with plans on adding consciousness later.
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by Ahso! »

Just admit, Mickey, that you've got nothing to base any of this on other than your personal speculations and that you're making it up as you go. That's all you need to do for me to leave you to your fictitious story.
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by Mickiel »

Or God could have done it that way in order to use Primordial man in the future for some unknown purpose; that must be considered.
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by Mickiel »

For some reason, God wanted " Human Boots on the ground" far before he created Adam. I don't really know why; but Primordial man was destined to roam this earth for hundreds of thousands of years, and I think they were destined to do so, without being conscious of it.
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Post by Mickiel »

Now just think about your average day in your life and the things that you normally do; and just really think about how many of those things that you do unconsciously. Without even thinking about it.

Then you can really begin to realize just how much a human can do that does not require consciousness to do it.
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Post by Mickiel »

Just as energy is in a constant state of change, consciousness always continues to grow, further proof that Primordial man had no consciousness; they stayed stagnant far too long.
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by LarsMac »

You're beginning to remind me of Pahu
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by Mickiel »

LarsMac;1435302 wrote: You're beginning to remind me of Pahu


Well I don't know who Pahu is, and since I don't get compliments here, I can only imagine that this is some kind of insult.

This thread is theory; plain flat out theory. Don't let it bug you.
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by LarsMac »

Mickiel;1435312 wrote: Well I don't know who Pahu is, and since I don't get compliments here, I can only imagine that this is some kind of insult.

This thread is theory; plain flat out theory. Don't let it bug you.


No, it was not intended as an insult.

Just an observation.

You continue to restate your opinion, but have little evidence to offer, and there really isn't anything to build a case from.

The notion of consciousness leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

My opinion is that such consciousness evolved along with man. Yours seems to be that it was suddenly infused into Adam when God finally got bored with all the mindless apes wandering about the landscape.



Evidence, one way or the other is lacking. By the time hominids developed cooperative living arrangements and began to develop communications, they probably had developed some amount of consciousness, and a sense of "self"

I think what you are looking for is more that sense of self and the wonder of how one fits into the world. That self-consciousness is what I believe you are looking for.
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by Mickiel »

LarsMac;1435330 wrote: No, it was not intended as an insult.

Just an observation.

You continue to restate your opinion, but have little evidence to offer, and there really isn't anything to build a case from.

The notion of consciousness leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

My opinion is that such consciousness evolved along with man. Yours seems to be that it was suddenly infused into Adam when God finally got bored with all the mindless apes wandering about the landscape.



Evidence, one way or the other is lacking. By the time hominids developed cooperative living arrangements and began to develop communications, they probably had developed some amount of consciousness, and a sense of "self"

I think what you are looking for is more that sense of self and the wonder of how one fits into the world. That self-consciousness is what I believe you are looking for.




There is not a truckload of evidence, and I have given what I have. This is theory, I am working on it. When you work on theory, evidence comes when it comes.

I still have a sense that this was intended as an insult; but hey, when you deal with stuff like this, you don't get a lot of company.
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Post by Mickiel »

I don't know why some people seem to believe that consciousness can grow on a self created tree and create itself from chemicals that created themselves.
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Post by Mickiel »

If you think about it, how could such a thing as consciousness come into existence on its own; I personally think its one of the top three proofs of God. Lets just imagine Consciousness created itself and now you must support that premise. How are you going to do it? What physical self created things, created consciousness? And how? Then, after it was created, how did it get into humans? How? Explain that to me. I believe consciousness is a Spirit from God given to humans after he created the body. If consciousness is not a spirit, then where is it located in the body? What physical organ is consciousness? If your going to exclude God from this your going to have to prove it!
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Post by LarsMac »

If God and the Universe are one, then Consciousness is naturally part of the universe.

The level of consciousness, then would be related more to how well one can divert from the distraction of dealing with the constant bombardment of activity in one's environment. For example, when protected from the elements and the drive for nourishment no longer consume one's entire day, one has time to reflect upon such things.
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Post by Mickiel »

LarsMac;1435389 wrote: If God and the Universe are one, then Consciousness is naturally part of the universe.

The level of consciousness, then would be related more to how well one can divert from the distraction of dealing with the constant bombardment of activity in one's environment. For example, when protected from the elements and the drive for nourishment no longer consume one's entire day, one has time to reflect upon such things.


Why should God be " One" with billions of stars and planets? For what? God is not one with the Universe, he had it created. Being one with something is more so a personal relationship I would think.
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Post by LarsMac »

Mickiel;1435390 wrote: ... Being one with something is more so a personal relationship I would think.


Exactly
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Post by Mickiel »

Consciousness cannot arrive from mere matter; it is wisdom, knowing how it is or what it is like; consciousness is significant impact on reality, shifting the gears totally toward purpose and meaning; and I maintain that meaning must come from something that was already meaningful.

And will give birth to meaningful results.
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Post by Mickiel »

Knowing that I am conscious, is knowing that God is real. And consciousness has a real history that can be traced; I however doubt it can be traced in humans before Adam.
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Post by Mickiel »

If God did not give humans consciousness, then explain when and how it emerged in humans?

This I would love to see.
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Post by Ahso! »

Mickiel;1435787 wrote: If God did not give humans consciousness, then explain when and how it emerged in humans?

This I would love to see.No you wouldn't or you would have learned about the evolution of the brain. The brain is an organ like any other.
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Post by Mickiel »

Ahso!;1435805 wrote: No you wouldn't or you would have learned about the evolution of the brain. The brain is an organ like any other.


I don't debate with name calling disrespectful posters; it makes no sense to.
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Post by Ahso! »

Debate? Mickey, really.

If you want to know the answers to questions go to the places that hold those answers instead of posing your questions to people who not only don't care enough to help you seek out the answers but don't understand whatever it is your talking about to begin with.
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Post by Mickiel »

Ahso!;1435821 wrote: Debate? Mickey, really.

If you want to know the answers to questions go to the places that hold those answers instead of posing your questions to people who not only don't care enough to help you seek out the answers but don't understand whatever it is your talking about to begin with.


I object to intelligence that has selective respect; I object to your witch hunt of me being banned; I object to your cursing at posters; I object to your mentality of calling people names with impunity; I object to you and want nothing to do with you ever again.
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Mickiel;1435822 wrote: I object to intelligence that has selective respect; I object to your witch hunt of me being banned; I object to your cursing at posters; I object to your mentality of calling people names with impunity; I object to you and want nothing to do with you ever again.


Sounds like you two just broke up..
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Post by Mickiel »

YZGI;1435846 wrote: Sounds like you two just broke up..


I am done with his two faced arrogance and deception. Its just gotten too ugly. In 6 years here, he is the first person I ever put on ignore.
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Post by Mickiel »

If one could ever understand that Primordial man was not conscious, then they could see that neither are animals; as long as we give these groups consciousness, then our conscious will still be blind.
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Post by Mickiel »

The Primordial side of man does not recognize God, it is not conscious of him;

This is how I know the world is now evolving backwards.
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Post by Mickiel »

Why God created Primordial man baffles me; I just don't know? The religions that teach they did not exist, are simply wrong; they did exist, and I think they existed in an unconscious state of being; which is amazing. A whole race of humans, yet not conscious as we are conscious.
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by LarsMac »

Mickiel;1444959 wrote: Why God created Primordial man baffles me; I just don't know? The religions that teach they did not exist, are simply wrong; they did exist, and I think they existed in an unconscious state of being; which is amazing. A whole race of humans, yet not conscious as we are conscious.


With that description, I can see that there are still a lot of 'em out there, still.
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Post by Singh-Song »

Mickiel;1433901 wrote: The more I look at Primordial Man, the less I see them as having a consciousness that was even similar to ours. I think they had physical brains, and highly developed instincts, but I do not view them as being conscious beings. They stayed stagnant far too long; stayed the same literally, with almost little change in over what; 250,000 years and more. Perhaps much more.

In my view, they never became civilized.

In example, what are the sure signs of consciousness and civilization? And did they display those? I think not. Here are some signs of Consciousness and civilization;

Language

Mathmatics

Science

Transportation

Spelling

Religion

Technology

War

Education

communication

Building

Agriculture

And the list just goes on and on, and Primordial man had almost zero of these that developed into a higher stage before Adam came on the scene, and I believe Adam was the first human with an active working consciousness, and soon after him civilization began, and later Egypt really grew in its civilization.

Too much time elasped for me to accept that neanderthals and cromagnons had consciousness, those who lived before the Ice Age. They basically stayed the same for perhaps millions of years?

Is it then possible for a whole race of humans to exist, and not be conscious?


You keep prattling on about 'Adam' in spite of being an adamant agnostic, which I have to say is really annoying; but that aside, lets look at your assertion. You say that neither Neanderthal nor Cro-Magnons count as conscious, sentient beings, and that sentience only began with your Adam and Eve couple after the end of the Ice Age, roughly 10,000 years ago. Are you a fanatical Jewish religious extremist, here to incite racial hatred? You do realise that what you are in fact arguing is that for all of those who can't claim direct descent from Adam- which would amount to around 99% of the world's population, given the global distribution of humanity by the time you're proposing- human rights shouldn't apply, because we're not actually sentient beings. Well, news flash; it doesn't matter which race you hail from (even White European, which basically amounts to being of mixed descent between the two races which you refuse accept as having consciousness, Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons). All of us are just branches of a single human race- even Neanderthals, with the genetic difference between them and any modern present-day human only amounting to a third of that required by the American Kennel Club to register a new breed of dog. And all of us all possess active working consciousnesses, not just a single miniscule minority group.

And as for your list of the supposed 'hallmarks of civilisation', all can be torn to shreds with ease. As a form of fighting in which the individual humans on the front line are expected to give up their free will entirely and become automatons of those ordering them into battle, 'War' is certainly not a sign of higher consciousness by any stretch of the imagination. 'Communication'- isn't this a more primitive form of language, something which can be observed in any lifeform higher than an amoeba? Even plants communicate with each other using chemical signals, for goodness' sake. Are they conscious organisms as well? Spelling- are you having a laugh? You can't even spell mathematics yourself. Does this mean that you don't possess an active working consciousness?* Language- how can you provide any proof that these earlier forms of humanity didn't have language? Brain analyses have already definitively proved that they possessed the capacity, the language centres of their brains were all there. Technology- what counts as technology? Stone Tools? Spears? Nets? Clothing? Because these are all things which mankind possessed well before the timeframe you're talking about. Agriculture- you do know we have proof that people have been growing crops for around 20,000 years, right? Education- even cavemen had skills, in their use of tools, foraging and hunting, and all of these skills had to be taught, passed down from generation to generation. Building- for a civilisation which never advances to the stage of industrialisation, how many buildings do you think are going to still be standing after hundreds of thousands of years? Even with our own advanced civilisation, do you think there would even be the slightest trace of any of our structures after a hundred millennia or so, except for the caves formed from our transport tunnels and military bunkers? You can't even prove that they didn't have any of the things on your list, let alone prove that they were mentally inferior to the extent of being incapable of doing so.

*- and BTW, before you nitpick my own spelling, I'm writing in UK English, not American.
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Post by Singh-Song »

Mickiel;1435822 wrote: I object to intelligence that has selective respect; I object to your witch hunt of me being banned; I object to your cursing at posters; I object to your mentality of calling people names with impunity; I object to you and want nothing to do with you ever again.


I myself can't see for the life of me where he called for you to be banned, but I would certainly be inclined to back him if he did. You need to start actually being willing to engage with the other people who have things to say, instead of disparagingly dismissing everything they have to say just because their views don't match your own. If you continue to refuse to do so, then I suggest that you stop crowding out every thread on ForumGarden's Philosophy and Religion Forums to post your streams of consciousness around the clock and set up an online blog instead, because it'll be far more rewarding for everybody, yourself included.
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Post by Mickiel »

[QUOTE=Singh-Song;1445861]You keep prattling on about 'Adam' in spite of being an adamant agnostic, which I have to say is really annoying;/QUOTE]





I believe in God with all my heart, I am not Agnostic; It is unfortunate that you are annoyed; I hold no interest in responding to people who are very annoyed at me.

Why should I? I am not annoyed at you; I find that very disrespectful.
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Post by Mickiel »

Singh-Song;1445862 wrote: I myself can't see for the life of me where he called for you to be banned, but I would certainly be inclined to back him if he did. You need to start actually being willing to engage with the other people who have things to say, instead of disparagingly dismissing everything they have to say just because their views don't match your own. If you continue to refuse to do so, then I suggest that you stop crowding out every thread on ForumGarden's Philosophy and Religion Forums to post your streams of consciousness around the clock and set up an online blog instead, because it'll be far more rewarding for everybody, yourself included.


I am often embarrassed by how I used to think and how I dealt with people and topics being discussed. I wish I could take many of them back, but it has been what it was and it is what it is. Learning is a trip.+
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Post by LarsMac »

Mickiel;1521966 wrote: I am often embarrassed by how I used to think and how I dealt with people and topics being discussed. I wish I could take many of them back, but it has been what it was and it is what it is. Learning is a trip.+


Well, as long as you are learning and growing it can't be all bad.

I don't recall seeing this thread, before. It has some interesting thoughts.
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Post by Mickiel »

LarsMac;1521967 wrote: Well, as long as you are learning and growing it can't be all bad.

I don't recall seeing this thread, before. It has some interesting thoughts.


Yes I don't think primordial man was conscious but I understand that a normal consciousness perhaps cannot yet see that. One has to be a bit nutty.
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Post by Mickiel »

Nutty and unconventional and willing to look one step beyond. To disconnect from traditional learning. A closer stare at reason. And when a whole race of humans leave no trace of reason for thousands of years , there must be a reason for that history.
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Post by Mickiel »

Mickiel;1521999 wrote: Nutty and unconventional and willing to look one step beyond. To disconnect from traditional learning. A closer stare at reason. And when a whole race of humans leave no trace of reason for thousands of years , there must be a reason for that history.


For thousands perhaps millions of years we have no record of primordial humans leaving a record of anything, because they didn't know how. It stands to reason that they didn't know how to reason.

But we been taught for so long that they were conscious. And we cannot accept that they were not.
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Post by LarsMac »

I can't say that I understand what you are getting at. Consciousness is a relative thing. How conscious were you when you were a 1-year-old?
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Post by Mickiel »

LarsMac;1522024 wrote: I can't say that I understand what you are getting at. Consciousness is a relative thing. How conscious were you when you were a 1-year-old?


I believe 1 year old humans are more conscious than adult primordial humans were.
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by Mickiel »

There were obviously primordial humans. What then was the obvious difference between them and us ; I would say consciousness.
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FourPart
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by FourPart »

Mickiel;1445873 wrote: [QUOTE=Singh-Song;1445861]You keep prattling on about 'Adam' in spite of being an adamant agnostic, which I have to say is really annoying;/QUOTE]





I believe in God with all my heart, I am not Agnostic; It is unfortunate that you are annoyed; I hold no interest in responding to people who are very annoyed at me.

Why should I? I am not annoyed at you; I find that very disrespectful.


Can someone be an adamant Agnostic? The whole point of being Agnostic, as opposed to being Atheist is to not be sure either way, although technically I see it as a sliding scale. I, for instance, have no belief in a God whatsoever, so would consider myself Atheist. However, because I follow the rules of Science I would have to say that if faced with hard evidence (and a story book / folklore does not count as evidence) I would have to accept it & believe in the evidence, so by rights there is no such thing as an Atheist. I suppose I wold class myself as 99.99% Agnostic. Conversely, though, Theists have no shortage of evidence to the contrary, yet deny its validity or even its existence.

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