The Cost of Stayin Alive!

coberst
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The Cost of Stayin Alive!

Post by coberst »

The Cost of Stayin Alive!

I once asked a professor of philosophy “what is philosophy about?” he responded “philosophy is a radically critical self-consciousness”. It took me thirty years to understand this statement.

I shall take a “radically critical self-conscious” look at the question of longevity in these troubled times.

My generation and my children’s generation have not prepared my grandchildren’s generation for the mess that we are leaving to them. One easily understood aspect of this mess, though not the most important, is the massive debt past generations are leaving to future generations.

The tea party’s clamor about public debt makes this matter obvious to us on a daily basis. Has the tea party taken a radically critical self-conscious look of this problem? I think not, but who would claim that these people are intellectually sophisticated?

Imagine that instead of a tea party we faced daily the much publicized clamor of reasoned judgment by an older generation of intellectually sophisticated citizens.

A person who has lived 75 years, such as me, might ask him or her self “is every additional day of life for me worth $100 to my family?”

I receive about $1,500 a month in social security or $50 a day. I am adding another $50 a day to cover other costs such as health care and the consumption of the earth’s natural resources. This $100 a day does not include other costs that my family will endure as a result of my dieing slowly over the remainder of my life.

I put this on a family values basis because we American citizens have learned to hide reality from our conscious considerations. If we put it on a national basis we will not comprehend the reality of the situation.

I can think of only one way that we old folks can pay our way sufficiently to justify living longer than 75 years. The way that old folks can pay their way is by preparing themselves to become intellectually sophisticated before they are old (just as we prepare financially for old age) so that they can provide to society a storehouse of networked understanding to help fellow citizens to make good judgments regarding matters of culture and government.
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Lon
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Post by Lon »

coberst;1304161 wrote: The Cost of Stayin Alive!

I once asked a professor of philosophy “what is philosophy about?” he responded “philosophy is a radically critical self-consciousness”. It took me thirty years to understand this statement.

I shall take a “radically critical self-conscious” look at the question of longevity in these troubled times.

My generation and my children’s generation have not prepared my grandchildren’s generation for the mess that we are leaving to them. One easily understood aspect of this mess, though not the most important, is the massive debt past generations are leaving to future generations.

The tea party’s clamor about public debt makes this matter obvious to us on a daily basis. Has the tea party taken a radically critical self-conscious look of this problem? I think not, but who would claim that these people are intellectually sophisticated?

Imagine that instead of a tea party we faced daily the much publicized clamor of reasoned judgment by an older generation of intellectually sophisticated citizens.

A person who has lived 75 years, such as me, might ask him or her self “is every additional day of life for me worth $100 to my family?”

I receive about $1,500 a month in social security or $50 a day. I am adding another $50 a day to cover other costs such as health care and the consumption of the earth’s natural resources. This $100 a day does not include other costs that my family will endure as a result of my dieing slowly over the remainder of my life.

I put this on a family values basis because we American citizens have learned to hide reality from our conscious considerations. If we put it on a national basis we will not comprehend the reality of the situation.

I can think of only one way that we old folks can pay our way sufficiently to justify living longer than 75 years. The way that old folks can pay their way is by preparing themselves to become intellectually sophisticated before they are old (just as we prepare financially for old age) so that they can provide to society a storehouse of networked understanding to help fellow citizens to make good judgments regarding matters of culture and government.


Ah Coberst--------You and I seem to share much------we both have reached 3/4 of a century in age, have children, grandchildren, (even great grandchildren now) receive $1,500 monthly from Social Security and a concern about what kind of financial mess we are leaving our heirs.

In this and prior posts you have tried to make a case that for the "Intellectually Sophisticated" and how if we had had and will have in the future a more erudite citizenry our way through the maze of life would make a vast difference.

I have a completely different concern that has nothing to do with philosophical/intellectual qualities and capabilities. My concern has to do with the radical change in how many children are being raised. Everything from manners, education, disipline, expectations, responsibility etc. , none of which requires intellectual input. I am impressed with a number of your prior posts as it is obvious that you have spent much time on what seems to be your favorite subject. This world certainly needs a better informed, better educated populace but not necessarily a elitist intellectual/philosopher. The impact of the intellectual/philosopher in past centuries has been fairly negligible. The shakers and movers seem to be thoughtful and intelligent thinking people with a gift of conveying acceptable ideas, but not those of a philosophical/intellectual bent.

The cost of keeping this septuagenarian alive the past few years has been quite high from a medical standpoint and fortunately between Medicare, Private Ins. and personal resources I have paid my way. I would hope that between now and the time I take my final breath I am able to make some positive difference, no matte how small in the lives of others. I know for a fact that I have done this in the past.

On a completely different thought---------what would you think of a society killing any individual that had committed a third felony offense?
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Post by coberst »

Lon

Thanks for posting your ideas.

First, I will say that our (American) culture is very anti-intellectual and therein, I think, lays the rub.

We are anti-intellectual because those who control public policy (Corporate America) keep us like dumb bovine because it is easier to manipulate a naïve person than a sophisticated person.

I am not in favor of the death penalty for any reason. I am, however, in favor of keeping some people in prison until they die.
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Post by buttercup »

Its expensive to keep someone in prison until they die.
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Post by Lon »

coberst;1304377 wrote: Lon

Thanks for posting your ideas.

First, I will say that our (American) culture is very anti-intellectual and therein, I think, lays the rub.

We are anti-intellectual because those who control public policy (Corporate America) keep us like dumb bovine because it is easier to manipulate a naïve person than a sophisticated person.

I am not in favor of the death penalty for any reason. I am, however, in favor of keeping some people in prison until they die.


I don't think it's the intellectualism that most people seem to dislike, but the arrogance of many intellectuals.

I would appreciate an example of how Corporate America keeps us dumb----IBM, Microsoft, Monsanto for example.

Hasn't the government done a fairly good job of dumbing down the populace?

Could you share with us why you are not in favor of the death penalty?
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Post by Ahso! »

Lon;1304464 wrote: I don't think it's the intellectualism that most people seem to dislike, but the arrogance of many intellectuals.

I would appreciate an example of how Corporate America keeps us dumb----IBM, Microsoft, Monsanto for example.Watch any television commercial, read any written advertisement, listen to the spiel of any salesperson. Its all for the express purpose of speaking at and down to people thus dumbing down.

The other day I was watching a Philadelphia baseball game which was being played at Citizens bank park. There are apparently a few paying fans that get free Citizens Bank t-shits and they were willing to model them in order to get on camera. So there they were hootin' and holarin' for Citizens Bank just for 10 or 15 seconds of fame. Never mind the fact that Citizens Bank neglected to offer those customers of theirs the option of opting out of an unexplained policy of covering any overdraft via debit/credit or check for a fee of $39.00 and once an account began to overdraft the charges would accumulate to hundreds and even thousands of dollars per month. The overdrafts would begin usually unaware to the customer when instead of turning down a credit card purchase for going over the amount in the checking account, regardless if it was a penny or fifty dollars, the bank would okay the charge. Then when customers would call the bank requesting assistance and advice of how they could prevent these fees from accumulating again, the bank would neglect again to inform them they could opt-out. Congress finally put an end to this despicable practice this past year. Incidentally, this was started with that 2003 (I think) law stuffed down our throats by the republicans and Bush when they ran congress. People who refuse to hold corporations responsible for these actions, display their logos on t-shirts or whatever and those that can't see this have been dumbed down.

Or how about a commercial depicting men as slaves to cars and beer.

How could some people really be this unconscious of all these things? They are the ones bought by so called success. Blinded with Fools Gold! You can have it, I certainly don't want it.



Lon;1304464 wrote: Hasn't the government done a fairly good job of dumbing down the populace?Yes, ever since the government was taken over by corporations who then installed their corporate lawyers as staffers, lobbyists and elected officials.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



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Be the wave that I am and then

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Post by Lon »

Ahso!;1304467 wrote: Watch any television commercial, read any written advertisement, listen to the spiel of any salesperson. Its all for the express purpose of speaking at and down to people thus dumbing down.

The other day I was watching a Philadelphia baseball game which was being played at Citizens bank park. There are apparently a few paying fans that get free Citizens Bank t-shits and they were willing to model them in order to get on camera. So there they were hootin' and holarin' for Citizens Bank just for 10 or 15 seconds of fame. Never mind the fact that Citizens Bank neglected to offer those customers of theirs the option of opting out of an unexplained policy of covering any overdraft via debit/credit or check for a fee of $39.00 and once an account began to overdraft the charges would accumulate to hundreds and even thousands of dollars per month. The overdrafts would begin usually unaware to the customer when instead of turning down a credit card purchase for going over the amount in the checking account, regardless if it was a penny or fifty dollars, the bank would okay the charge. Then when customers would call the bank requesting assistance and advice of how they could prevent these fees from accumulating again, the bank would neglect again to inform them they could opt-out. Congress finally put an end to this despicable practice this past year. Incidentally, this was started with that 2003 (I think) law stuffed down our throats by the republicans and Bush when they ran congress. People who refuse to hold corporations responsible for these actions, display their logos on t-shirts or whatever and those that can't see this have been dumbed down.

Or how about a commercial depicting men as slaves to cars and beer.

How could some people really be this unconscious of all these things? They are the ones bought by so called success. Blinded with Fools Gold! You can have it, I certainly don't want it.



Yes, ever since the government was taken over by corporations who then installed their corporate lawyers as staffers, lobbyists and elected officials.


I think you have got it backwards Ahso---------rather than Corporate America taking advantage of the citizenry and dumbing them down, I think Corporate America is merely taking advantage of an already dumbed down and naive citizenry that Corporate America had nothing to do with.

CASH BACK!!!!! NO PAYMENTS OR INTEREST FOR 24 MONTHS!!!!!

Now a reasonably intelligent person would figure out that the interest has already been factored into the initial price, but not your average consumer. IS THIS CORPORATE AMERICA'S FAULT?
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Post by Ahso! »

Lon;1304476 wrote: I think you have got it backwards Ahso---------rather than Corporate America taking advantage of the citizenry and dumbing them down, I think Corporate America is merely taking advantage of an already dumbed down and naive citizenry that Corporate America had nothing to do with.
Well that says it all about the integrity of corporate America, doesn't it! Its willingness to take advantage of those less capable and less fortunate. Thanks for making my case for me.

Just so you know, both are products of the same educational system. That system creates the two type of people you describe - the naive and the greedy. Also, don't forget that 'dumbed down' citizenry consists of themselves and their loved ones too. Since you and your family come from America, what does that say for all of you?

The people Coberst often refers to are a third group which opts out of both categories - Critical Thinkers.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



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Be the wave that I am and then

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Post by Lon »

Ahso!;1304480 wrote: :wah:

Well that says it all about the integrity of corporate America, doesn't it! Its willingness to take advantage of those less capable and less fortunate. Thanks for making my case for me.

Just so you know, both came from the same educational system. That system creates the two type of people you describe - the naive and the greedy. Also, don't forget that 'dumbed down' citizenry consists of themselves and their loved ones too. Since you and your family come from America, what does that say for all of you?

The people Coberst often refers to are a third group which opts out of both categories - Critical Thinkers.


What says it all is the fact that you obviously feel that there is no individual responsibility on the part of citizenry, that they have no control & are manipulated by the evil corporations. My initial query asking for examples of IBM, Microsoft and Monsanto's evil doings has not been addressed, and by the way, what would you suggest as a replacement for the corporate entity?
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Post by Ahso! »

Lon;1304481 wrote: What says it all is the fact that you obviously feel that there is no individual responsibility on the part of citizenry, that they have no control & are manipulated by the evil corporations. My initial query asking for examples of IBM, Microsoft and Monsanto's evil doings has not been addressed, You said this; I would appreciate an example of how Corporate America keeps us dumb----IBM, Microsoft, Monsanto for example. Which sounds to me like asking for an example of corporate dumb down policy and using the three you mentioned as examples of what you're looking for.Lon;1304481 wrote: what would you suggest as a replacement for the corporate entity? A better, more responsible and transparent one. Actually, I'd take socialism. Its possible we may have finally advanced far enough as a society to make it work.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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Post by Ahso! »

Lon;1304481 wrote: What says it all is the fact that you obviously feel that there is no individual responsibility on the part of citizenry, that they have no control & are manipulated by the evil corporations.Now thats funny. How did you read that into what I said?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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Post by Lon »

Ahso!;1304482 wrote: You said this; Which sounds to me like asking for an example of corporate dumb down policy and using the three you mentioned as examples of what you're looking for. A better, more responsible and transparent one. Actually, I'd take socialism. Its possible we may have finally advanced far enough as a society to make it work.


You are being evasive-------

Under your ideal responsible and transparent entity, who, what and how would it function. Explain to me if you can the means of production and distribution. There are many different forms of Socialism. Also, do you feel your world would have been better if you had grown up without any corporations?
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Post by coberst »

Lon;1304464 wrote: I don't think it's the intellectualism that most people seem to dislike, but the arrogance of many intellectuals.

I would appreciate an example of how Corporate America keeps us dumb----IBM, Microsoft, Monsanto for example.

Hasn't the government done a fairly good job of dumbing down the populace?

Could you share with us why you are not in favor of the death penalty?


An oligarchy controls public policy in America. The oligarchy consists of those who manage the great wealth of American institutions. This oligarchy designs our educational system to graduate good producers and consumers and does not desire independent thinkers.

CA (Corporate America) has developed a well-honed expertise in motivating the population to behave in a desired manner. Citizens as consumers are ample manifestation of that expertise. CA has accomplished this ability by careful study and implementation of the knowledge of the ways of human behavior. I suspect this same structure applies to most Western democracies.

A democratic form of government is one wherein the citizens have some voice in some policy decisions. The greater the voice of the citizens the better the democracy. The greater the intellectual sophistication of those citizens the better the democracy.

In America we have policy makers, decision makers, and citizens. The decision makers are our elected representatives and are, thus, under some control by the voting citizen. The policy makers are the leaders of CA; less than ten thousand individuals, according to those who study such matters. Policy makers exercise significant control of decision makers by controlling the financing of elections.

Policy makers customize and maintain the dominant ideology in order to control the political behavior of the citizens. This dominant ideology exercises the political control of the citizens in the same fashion as the consuming citizen is controlled by the same dominant ideology.

An enlightened citizen is the only means to gain more voice in more policy decisions. An enlightened citizen is much more than an informed citizen. Critical thinking is the only practical means to develop a more enlightened citizen. If, however, we wait until our CT trained grade-schoolers become adults I suspect all will be lost. This is why I think a massive effort must be made to convince today’s adults that they must train themselves in CT.



“Thomas R. Dye, Professor of Political Science at Florida State University, has published a series of books examining who and what institutions actually control and run America. to understand who is making the decisions that affect our lives, we also have to understand how societies structure themselves in general. Why the few always tend to share more power than the many and what this means in terms of both a society's evolution and our daily lives. they examined the other 11 institutions that exert just as powerful a shaping influence, although somewhat more subtle: The Industrial, Corporations, Utilities and Communications, Banking, Insurance Investment, Mass Media, Law, Education Foundation, Civic and Cultural Organizations, Government, and the Military.”
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Post by coberst »

Ahso

Thanks for taking up the baton.
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Post by Lon »

coberst;1304555 wrote: An oligarchy controls public policy in America. The oligarchy consists of those who manage the great wealth of American institutions. This oligarchy designs our educational system to graduate good producers and consumers and does not desire independent thinkers.

CA (Corporate America) has developed a well-honed expertise in motivating the population to behave in a desired manner. Citizens as consumers are ample manifestation of that expertise. CA has accomplished this ability by careful study and implementation of the knowledge of the ways of human behavior. I suspect this same structure applies to most Western democracies.

A democratic form of government is one wherein the citizens have some voice in some policy decisions. The greater the voice of the citizens the better the democracy. The greater the intellectual sophistication of those citizens the better the democracy.

In America we have policy makers, decision makers, and citizens. The decision makers are our elected representatives and are, thus, under some control by the voting citizen. The policy makers are the leaders of CA; less than ten thousand individuals, according to those who study such matters. Policy makers exercise significant control of decision makers by controlling the financing of elections.

Policy makers customize and maintain the dominant ideology in order to control the political behavior of the citizens. This dominant ideology exercises the political control of the citizens in the same fashion as the consuming citizen is controlled by the same dominant ideology.

An enlightened citizen is the only means to gain more voice in more policy decisions. An enlightened citizen is much more than an informed citizen. Critical thinking is the only practical means to develop a more enlightened citizen. If, however, we wait until our CT trained grade-schoolers become adults I suspect all will be lost. This is why I think a massive effort must be made to convince today’s adults that they must train themselves in CT.



“Thomas R. Dye, Professor of Political Science at Florida State University, has published a series of books examining who and what institutions actually control and run America. to understand who is making the decisions that affect our lives, we also have to understand how societies structure themselves in general. Why the few always tend to share more power than the many and what this means in terms of both a society's evolution and our daily lives. they examined the other 11 institutions that exert just as powerful a shaping influence, although somewhat more subtle: The Industrial, Corporations, Utilities and Communications, Banking, Insurance Investment, Mass Media, Law, Education Foundation, Civic and Cultural Organizations, Government, and the Military.”


What you say is of course true-------oligarchy exists through out our society and we see it in not only corporate America but in Religious and Military America. But my preference is for this kind of structure (it's not that severe in my view) as opposed to having all things run by intellectuals who could expound endlessly on why people are starving, why there are wars etc., but never ever take action to solve the problems.

You are also correct that a enlightened citizen is one of the means of gaining more voice in policy decisions, but who will impart this enlightenment, intellectuals? We would all then be of the same bent, not so?
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coberst;1304161 wrote: The Cost of Stayin Alive!

I once asked a professor of philosophy “what is philosophy about?” he responded “philosophy is a radically critical self-consciousness”. It took me thirty years to understand this statement.

I shall take a “radically critical self-conscious” look at the question of longevity in these troubled times.

My generation and my children’s generation have not prepared my grandchildren’s generation for the mess that we are leaving to them. One easily understood aspect of this mess, though not the most important, is the massive debt past generations are leaving to future generations.

The tea party’s clamor about public debt makes this matter obvious to us on a daily basis. Has the tea party taken a radically critical self-conscious look of this problem? I think not, but who would claim that these people are intellectually sophisticated?

Imagine that instead of a tea party we faced daily the much publicized clamor of reasoned judgment by an older generation of intellectually sophisticated citizens.

A person who has lived 75 years, such as me, might ask him or her self “is every additional day of life for me worth $100 to my family?”

I receive about $1,500 a month in social security or $50 a day. I am adding another $50 a day to cover other costs such as health care and the consumption of the earth’s natural resources. This $100 a day does not include other costs that my family will endure as a result of my dieing slowly over the remainder of my life.

I put this on a family values basis because we American citizens have learned to hide reality from our conscious considerations. If we put it on a national basis we will not comprehend the reality of the situation.

I can think of only one way that we old folks can pay our way sufficiently to justify living longer than 75 years. The way that old folks can pay their way is by preparing themselves to become intellectually sophisticated before they are old (just as we prepare financially for old age) so that they can provide to society a storehouse of networked understanding to help fellow citizens to make good judgments regarding matters of culture and government.




I expect it's absolutely normal (not enlightened, not intellectual) for older people once in a while to consider old age as some kind of burden on family, society, etc... and then find a reason why somehow getting rid of this burden should not justifiably apply to them personally.



Your family might want to keep you around not for your mighty intellect or amazing wisdom, but because they value you as a whole person, enjoy your company, etc etc.... because they love you!!
"Life is too short to ski with ugly men"

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Post by Lon »

AussiePam;1304629 wrote: I expect it's absolutely normal (not enlightened, not intellectual) for older people once in a while to consider old age as some kind of burden on family, society, etc... and then find a reason why somehow getting rid of this burden should not justifiably apply to them personally.



Your family might want to keep you around not for your mighty intellect or amazing wisdom, but because they value you as a whole person, enjoy your company, etc etc.... because they love you!!


I live in a community of older people Sun City Roseville - An Active Adult Community with the average age being 71, and though there are creaky joints, hearing loss, poor eyesight and a number of maladies that go along with the aging process, this group is quite active politically (split pretty even between liberal and conservative). Almost all are retired. Although this group does not represent all seniors, it does represent a significant group of the elderly. This group of people pay not only income taxes (although reduced somewhat from working years), but state taxes, sales taxes etc. In addition, many make significant charitable contributions to one cause or another.

And rather than them being a burden on their children it is just the opposite in many cases, as some of their children suffer the effects of unemployment, mortgage foreclosure etc. and receive assistance from parents financially and in child rearing.
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Post by AussiePam »

coberst;1304161 wrote:

I can think of only one way that we old folks can pay our way sufficiently to justify living longer than 75 years. The way that old folks can pay their way is by preparing themselves to become intellectually sophisticated before they are old (just as we prepare financially for old age) so that they can provide to society a storehouse of networked understanding to help fellow citizens to make good judgments regarding matters of culture and government.




Lon wrote:

I live in a community of older people Sun City Roseville - An Active Adult Community with the average age being 71, and though there are creaky joints, hearing loss, poor eyesight and a number of maladies that go along with the aging process, this group is quite active politically (split pretty even between liberal and conservative). Almost all are retired. Although this group does not represent all seniors, it does represent a significant group of the elderly. This group of people pay not only income taxes (although reduced somewhat from working years), but state taxes, sales taxes etc. In addition, many make significant charitable contributions to one cause or another.

And rather than them being a burden on their children it is just the opposite in many cases, as some of their children suffer the effects of unemployment, mortgage foreclosure etc. and receive assistance from parents financially and in child rearing.


I can see that you then completely disagree with the general thrust of the OP.

I also disagree with the OP, for the reasons you've stated, and for the reasons I too stated.

But if when we grow old, we are also intellectually sophisticated and in demand as sages and counsellors, fine with me. Old women have often been the repositories of lifeskills stuff like how to darn socks. That might one day prove useful too.
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Post by Ahso! »

coberst;1304161 wrote: The Cost of Stayin Alive!

I once asked a professor of philosophy “what is philosophy about?” he responded “philosophy is a radically critical self-consciousness”. It took me thirty years to understand this statement.

I shall take a “radically critical self-conscious” look at the question of longevity in these troubled times.

My generation and my children’s generation have not prepared my grandchildren’s generation for the mess that we are leaving to them. One easily understood aspect of this mess, though not the most important, is the massive debt past generations are leaving to future generations.

The tea party’s clamor about public debt makes this matter obvious to us on a daily basis. Has the tea party taken a radically critical self-conscious look of this problem? I think not, but who would claim that these people are intellectually sophisticated?

Imagine that instead of a tea party we faced daily the much publicized clamor of reasoned judgment by an older generation of intellectually sophisticated citizens.

A person who has lived 75 years, such as me, might ask him or her self “is every additional day of life for me worth $100 to my family?”

I receive about $1,500 a month in social security or $50 a day. I am adding another $50 a day to cover other costs such as health care and the consumption of the earth’s natural resources. This $100 a day does not include other costs that my family will endure as a result of my dieing slowly over the remainder of my life.

I put this on a family values basis because we American citizens have learned to hide reality from our conscious considerations. If we put it on a national basis we will not comprehend the reality of the situation.

I can think of only one way that we old folks can pay our way sufficiently to justify living longer than 75 years. The way that old folks can pay their way is by preparing themselves to become intellectually sophisticated before they are old (just as we prepare financially for old age) so that they can provide to society a storehouse of networked understanding to help fellow citizens to make good judgments regarding matters of culture and government.Congratulations to you for understanding the meaning of love beyond oversensitivity.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
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Post by coberst »

Lon;1304618 wrote: What you say is of course true-------oligarchy exists through out our society and we see it in not only corporate America but in Religious and Military America. But my preference is for this kind of structure (it's not that severe in my view) as opposed to having all things run by intellectuals who could expound endlessly on why people are starving, why there are wars etc., but never ever take action to solve the problems.

You are also correct that a enlightened citizen is one of the means of gaining more voice in policy decisions, but who will impart this enlightenment, intellectuals? We would all then be of the same bent, not so?


Anti-intellectualism is as American as apple pie. This is because those who make public policy wish us to be ignorant because we are more easily manipulated when we are ignorant.
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Post by coberst »

AussiePam;1304629 wrote: I expect it's absolutely normal (not enlightened, not intellectual) for older people once in a while to consider old age as some kind of burden on family, society, etc... and then find a reason why somehow getting rid of this burden should not justifiably apply to them personally.



Your family might want to keep you around not for your mighty intellect or amazing wisdom, but because they value you as a whole person, enjoy your company, etc etc.... because they love you!!


Of course when we look at the matter of how society can afford this we can see that we must pull our head out of the sand.
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Post by Lon »

coberst;1304556 wrote: Ahso

Thanks for taking up the baton.




A baton that appears to have been dropped in the mud.
Ahso!
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Post by Ahso! »

Lon;1304840 wrote: A baton that appears to have been dropped in the mud.This sounds a lot like baiting or trolling, Lon. Anything relevant to the subject of the thread to add?

I thought the OP was everything Coberst claimed it would be in the first paragraph.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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Post by Lon »

Ahso!;1304871 wrote: This sounds a lot like baiting or trolling, Lon. Anything relevant to the subject of the thread to add?

I thought the OP was everything Coberst claimed it would be in the first paragraph.


No baiting, no trolling, just an observation oh follower of Coberst. You both like to pontificate without responding to specifics.

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