Mystery of Life and Death

Ahso!
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Mystery of Life and Death

Post by Ahso! »

What is it you find mysterious about life and death? For me there isn't much mystery to it. Wondrous, yes - mysterious, no. It is hard work though.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by koan »

I'm interested in keeping it to that thread right now. I don't see why you think it would take away from the other thread.
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Post by Snowfire »

I dont have the ability to get too philosophical about these subjects but I'll just throw my two pence worth in my own simple way. The only way I know how

I have just listened to some music on the radio. Music is one of the strongest catalysts for a nostalgic twinge. It was a track from an album of which my wife bought me for christmas in 1979. It suddenly dawned on me that that was just over 30 years ago. Terror struck me. It was just a while ago surely not 30 years. Where has my life gone ? Where has it disappeared to ? That little throw back in time was more than half my life and it struck me that life is passing me by far to quickly.

Am I enjoying myself too much, in which case that would explain the speed at which it all passes me by ? An hour of fun passes by much quicker than an hour of dull boredom. Waiting for a bus in the rain seems like forever, unless of course you're with your love and you will soon be parted. Then you only had a moment

I want it so much to slow down. Its making me much more aware of my own mortality and I seem to be accelerating toward that point of no return. A rollercoaster ride with no hope of getting on again for another go
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."

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Post by Ahso! »

koan;1303489 wrote: I'm interested in keeping it to that thread right now. I don't see why you think it would take away from the other thread.BTW I shouldn't say it takes away from the other thread, its not like its been removed. It just sparked other thoughts for me and its a good post, so I used it to begin a new discussion along with your original intention..
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by Ahso! »

If you wish me to remove the quote, I will.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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Post by Ahso! »

Snowfire;1303491 wrote: I dont have the ability to get too philosophical about these subjects but I'll just throw my two pence worth in my own simple way. The only way I know how

I have just listened to some music on the radio. Music is one of the strongest catalysts for a nostalgic twinge. It was a track from an album of which my wife bought me for christmas in 1979. It suddenly dawned on me that that was just over 30 years ago. Terror struck me. It was just a while ago surely not 30 years. Where has my life gone ? Where has it disappeared to ? That little throw back in time was more than half my life and it struck me that life is passing me by far to quickly.

Am I enjoying myself too much, in which case that would explain the speed at which it all passes me by ? An hour of fun passes by much quicker than an hour of dull boredom. Waiting for a bus in the rain seems like forever, unless of course you're with your love and you will soon be parted. Then you only had a moment

I want it so much to slow down. Its making me much more aware of my own mortality and I seem to be accelerating toward that point of no return. A rollercoaster ride with no hope of getting on again for another goThanks, SF. Thats a great post. I think here in America what you describe is called a midlife crisis. I went through a very similar experience in my mid forties. Waking up in the middle of the night with anxiety about mortality and questioning a lot about myself and my decisions. Very difficult time.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by koan »

Here's the thing: This was my answer as to why I call Atheism a religion. You have now told me that you don't accept my answer as such. I insist.

Quick answer for the purpose of this thread: In the quoted passage, the word "mystery" appears within the quote. I used the word "anxiety" and Ernest Becker won a Pulitzer for his book Denial of Death in which he explains his use of the word mystery so I'd not brush off the concept so lightly. I will now return to the other thread as K started it in order to get this type of discussion happening and I'm thinking he'll feel a little ripped off.
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Post by Ahso! »

koan;1303495 wrote: Here's the thing: This was my answer as to why I call Atheism a religion. You have now told me that you don't accept my answer as such. I insist.

Quick answer for the purpose of this thread: In the quoted passage, the word "mystery" appears within the quote. I used the word "anxiety" and Ernest Becker won a Pulitzer for his book Denial of Death in which he explains his use of the word mystery so I'd not brush off the concept so lightly. I will now return to the other thread as K started it in order to get this type of discussion happening and I'm thinking he'll feel a little ripped off.Done! Sorry for the misunderstanding. I didn'tt intend to say I rejected your answer. Sorry again!
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by theia »

Snowfire;1303491 wrote: I dont have the ability to get too philosophical about these subjects but I'll just throw my two pence worth in my own simple way. The only way I know how

I have just listened to some music on the radio. Music is one of the strongest catalysts for a nostalgic twinge. It was a track from an album of which my wife bought me for christmas in 1979. It suddenly dawned on me that that was just over 30 years ago. Terror struck me. It was just a while ago surely not 30 years. Where has my life gone ? Where has it disappeared to ? That little throw back in time was more than half my life and it struck me that life is passing me by far to quickly.

Am I enjoying myself too much, in which case that would explain the speed at which it all passes me by ? An hour of fun passes by much quicker than an hour of dull boredom. Waiting for a bus in the rain seems like forever, unless of course you're with your love and you will soon be parted. Then you only had a moment

I want it so much to slow down. Its making me much more aware of my own mortality and I seem to be accelerating toward that point of no return. A rollercoaster ride with no hope of getting on again for another go


That "30 years ago" is scary, Snowfire...I can easily do the "40 years ago" now and that's even worse :thinking:
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Post by Snowfire »

theia;1303512 wrote: That "30 years ago" is scary, Snowfire...I can easily do the "40 years ago" now and that's even worse :thinking:


There seems to be only one merit of the whole, getting older too soon, experience but it is a huge and important one.

My Grandchildren. The only thing I can accept the acceleration of my time for. So I do hold onto that
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Post by theia »

Snowfire;1303535 wrote: There seems to be only one merit of the whole, getting older too soon, experience but it is a huge and important one.

My Grandchildren. The only thing I can accept the acceleration of my time for. So I do hold onto that


I know what you mean, Snowfire..my first granddaughter is 20 and my second arrived 6 weeks ago. I adore them both and feel very fortunate to have them:-6
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Post by LarsMac »

I don't see mystery in life and death.

I am fascinated with the evolutionary aspects, the sheer variety of life forms and adaptation of life to its environment, but the mechanics of the whole thing have been figured out pretty well.

And death is pretty self evident, as well. Either something external interferes with the systemic function of the organism, or at some point some functional cells start to fail in the replication process, and the organism begins to fail.

The mystery seems to be around what happens after the organism fails.

Do we exist apart from the organism? or are we a function of the organism?

Will we still be after our particular organism fails?

Many of us think we know the answer.

A lot of us are just waiting to find out.

I saw this quote in one of the silly emails that is going around:

Life is a lot like a roll of toilet paper. The closer to the end, the faster it gets used up. Make the most of it.




There is some wisdom in "Bumper sticker philosophy"

Make the most of it.
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1303557 wrote: I don't see mystery in life and death.

I am fascinated with the evolutionary aspects, the sheer variety of life forms and adaptation of life to its environment, but the mechanics of the whole thing have been figured out pretty well.

And death is pretty self evident, as well. Either something external interferes with the systemic function of the organism, or at some point some functional cells start to fail in the replication process, and the organism begins to fail.

The mystery seems to be around what happens after the organism fails.

Do we exist apart from the organism? or are we a function of the organism?

Will we still be after our particular organism fails?

Many of us think we know the answer.

A lot of us are just waiting to find out.

I saw this quote in one of the silly emails that is going around:



There is some wisdom in "Bumper sticker philosophy"

Make the most of it.Well put, LM. Though I'm sure you realize I must ask about the second paragraph.

If through neuroscience and evolutionary theory we know that what is sometimes referred to as a spirit or soul is in fact emotion and storage (memories) and both take place in the brain, why then would it be conceivable that there may be a life after death?
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Post by AussiePam »

I think science still has rather a long way to go ... before we are all compelled to abandon the idea that life and death may hold a few little mysteries.
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Post by G#Gill »

I don't think there is any mystery about Life and Death - You are born, you live, then you die....................................... no mystery !;)
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Post by theia »

Although a part of me craves the security and certainty of knowing, another part of me is kept alive by the mystery and wonder of things.
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1303645 wrote: Well put, LM. Though I'm sure you realize I must ask about the second paragraph.

If through neuroscience and evolutionary theory we know that what is sometimes referred to as a spirit or soul is in fact emotion and storage (memories) and both take place in the brain, why then would it be conceivable that there may be a life after death?


Define conceivable.
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Post by Ahso! »

theia;1303686 wrote: Although a part of me craves the security and certainty of knowing, another part of me is kept alive by the mystery and wonder of things.


Out of curiosity, is that the philosophy you raised your children with concerning school?

What if understanding more opens up new doors of wonder and beauty? We're never too old or set in our ways unless we choose it to be that way. All that which you've experienced and felt will always be there, why not reach for more?

Much of these mysteries answers have been sitting right under our collective nose for 100 years because we rejected it as a society. Its been resurrected. Take a gander!

Evolution is absolutely amazingly beautiful and frightening. Its life, its what life really is. You don't want to know about that? I doubt that quite honestly.

Don't want or not want to know based on feelings, want to know because you're still alive and capable of it.
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1303687 wrote: Define conceivable.Understood!
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by theia »

Ahso!;1303689 wrote: Out of curiosity, is that the philosophy you raised your children with concerning school?

What if understanding more opens up new doors of wonder and beauty? We're never too old or set in our ways unless we choose it to be that way. All that which you've experienced and felt will always be there, why not reach for more?

Much of these mysteries answers have been sitting right under our collective nose for 100 years because we rejected it as a society. Its been resurrected. Take a gander!

Evolution is absolutely amazingly beautiful and frightening. Its life, its what life really is. You don't want to know about that? I doubt that quite honestly.

Don't want or not want to know based on feelings, want to know because you're still alive and capable of it.


No, Ahso, it wasn't.

And I agree that understanding can open the mind...I doubt that I could have said that a part of me feels alive in the presence of wonder and mystery if I hadn't experienced the life I have had. But that doesn't mean that I have to continue to want to know, does it? Wasn't it Jung who wrote something along the lines that we spend the first half of our lives creating an ego, and the latter part letting go of what we've learned? For me, now, I would prefer to be letting go than absorbing more...not that that is necessarily how I live my life, but it's the way that fulfils me the most.

And, for others, it's different.
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
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Post by Ahso! »

theia;1303697 wrote: No, Ahso, it wasn't.

And I agree that understanding can open the mind...I doubt that I could have said that a part of me feels alive in the presence of wonder and mystery if I hadn't experienced the life I have had. But that doesn't mean that I have to continue to want to know, does it? Wasn't it Jung who wrote something along the lines that we spend the first half of our lives creating an ego, and the latter part letting go of what we've learned? For me, now, I would prefer to be letting go than absorbing more...not that that is necessarily how I live my life, but it's the way that fulfils me the most.

And, for others, it's different.My way of putting that is: half my life was spent being fed lies that screwed me up and the other half spent undoing that which was done. This is part of the undoing for me. I think I prefer truth to myth at this point. I probably always have.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by AussiePam »

Ahso!;1303701 wrote: My way of putting that is: half my life was spent being fed lies that screwed me up and the other half spent undoing that which was done. This is part of the undoing for me. I think I prefer truth to myth at this point. I probably always have.


How sad for you.

----

I think it's quite mysterious why evolution evolves.

What preceded evolution? The Big Bang?

What preceded the Big Bang?

Asking us to believe everything just came from nothing sort of by itself is quite an ask. And assuming that all will be revealed by science in the fullness of time is quite an assumption.

If we evolve and change to survive, where does this survival instinct come from? You have to start somewhere. Or meaning itself has no meaning.
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Post by Ahso! »

AussiePam;1303704 wrote: How sad for you.Not sad at all. In my lifetime I've become aware and accepting of all this, as opposed to those who continue to walk down dark, mysterious corridors. I've turned on the lights. It's not me you should feel sorry for.

----

AussiePam;1303704 wrote: I think it's quite mysterious why evolution evolves.Perhaps you mean its mysterious why life evolves? Not really. Its actually quite simple.

AussiePam;1303704 wrote: What preceded evolution? The Big Bang?Do you mean to say what preceded life on earth? I don't know. Cosmology is a subject I know virtually nothing about.

AussiePam;1303704 wrote: What preceded the Big Bang?Got me! But its me and where I came from, who and what I am that concerns me.

AussiePam;1303704 wrote: Asking us to believe everything just came from nothing sort of by itself is quite an ask. And assuming that all will be revealed by science in the fullness of time is quite an assumption.You read a lot into what I've said. Evolutionary theory and philosophy consists of biology, psychology, everyday life and common sense as well as other avenues of understanding. I'm not asking you to do anything. I'm having a conversation. I'm making my case, thats all.

Incidentally, its not me who insists we came from nothing, thats the religious people. They claim some God that doesn't exist (nothing) created life. Now thats ridiculous. Simply because people have convinced themselves of this story and told it over and over again to the point where it actually makes sense, doesn't mean it makes sense.

AussiePam;1303704 wrote: If we evolve and change to survive, where does this survival instinct come from? You have to start somewhere. Or meaning itself has no meaning.Ever hear of the Guinea Worm? Dracunculiasis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Guinea Worm is an interesting little creature. What happens with this worm is people ingest its larva with drinking water. Over the next year or so this larva becomes a three foot worm that makes its way through its host down to the foot/ankle area and causes a burning sensation which causes the host to submerge its feet in water seeking relief. When the host puts its feet in water for relief of the burning sensation, the worm then protrudes out of the skin and lays its eggs thus completing the life cycle of birth, life and reproduction. Thats what every species does. The Guinea Worm's entire existence is to find a host, grow, spend its days getting to the right place for reproduction and then doing so.

People may think we're better than the Guinea Worm but we're not. Former American President Jimmy Carter has spent the last twenty years eradicating Guinea Worm disease and will complete this task sometime in the near future, thus wiping out yet another species. But thats completely understandable because this worm prevents humans from living a healthy productive life. Jimmy Carter is doing work that is important to his species, but he may not see it like that.

Whats also interesting is that when Carter and his team goes into villages in third world countries, the people are hesitant on letting them treat the water to kill the Guinea Worm and even change any aspect of what they are accustomed to doing. Why, because they are religious and superstitious. What Carter does is negotiate with these folks convincing them that the watering hole has been cursed and at a minimum habits such as at least filtering the water to reduce the ingestion of the worm should be done.

If we humans were not so 'tooled' with survival abilities via evolution through natural selection, I can promise you just about any other species would eradicate us too.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by LarsMac »

AussiePam;1303704 wrote: How sad for you.

----

I think it's quite mysterious why evolution evolves.

What preceded evolution? The Big Bang?

What preceded the Big Bang?

Asking us to believe everything just came from nothing sort of by itself is quite an ask. And assuming that all will be revealed by science in the fullness of time is quite an assumption.

If we evolve and change to survive, where does this survival instinct come from? You have to start somewhere. Or meaning itself has no meaning.


There is a lot of misunderstanding about the the evolution thing, and the Big Bang thing.

The whole Big Bang thing is a mathematical concept, based on evidence that the universe appears to be expanding.

If you follow the math, we find that the apparent trajectories all lead to the same point, hence the Big Bang.

And there is an assertion that that must be the beginning.

But that is based on the fact that we have no data with which to mathematically look back beyond that "singularity"

A lot of work is being done, there, and a lot of ideas have cropped up.

None of it has really developed a good hypothesis, yet, but that does not mean that "It all started with the Big Bang"

It is all part of the mystery.
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Post by LarsMac »

Nice post, Ahso.

Some excellent points.

Comparing ourselves to other species to determine if we are better or not is irrelevant.

we can only judge other species by how they affect our ability as a species to continue to exist, and evolve.

Of course we now reach the point where we have become the species which can most affect whether we are able to continue or not.
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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1303701 wrote: My way of putting that is: half my life was spent being fed lies that screwed me up and the other half spent undoing that which was done. This is part of the undoing for me. I think I prefer truth to myth at this point. I probably always have.


I am curious. Who was it that fed you lies for so long?

How was it that you allowed that to happen?
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1303719 wrote: I am curious. Who was it that fed you lies for so long?

How was it that you allowed that to happen?School, church, well meaning parents and other authority figures.

I understand that the human species needs to tell and be told stories, but when new facts come to light, those stories need to be altered (adapted) to fit the reality we live. Before evolution was known, we needed to try to understand where we came from and why we existed, so we did the best we could as a species to give purpose to our existence. Now that we now know how, when and where we came about, lets adjust or create a new dialogue and narrative that is honest and fits the times we live and the knowledge we now possess. Some generation is going to have to do this, why not start with ours.
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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1303721 wrote: School, church, well meaning parents and other authority figures.

I understand that the human species needs to tell and be told stories, but when new facts come to light, those stories need to be altered (adapted) to fit the reality we live. Before evolution was known, we needed to try to understand where we came from and why we existed, so we did the best we could as a species to give purpose to our existence. Now that we now know how, when and where we came about, lets adjust or create a new dialogue and narrative that is honest and fits the times we live and the knowledge we now possess. Some generation is going to have to do this, why not start with ours.


I guess I was lucky.

My parents, grandparents and extended family ALWAYS taught me to think for myself, and to take whatever people tell me with a grain of salt.

I always have.
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Post by K.Snyder »

Ahso!;1303488 wrote: What is it you find mysterious about life and death? For me there isn't much mystery to it. Wondrous, yes - mysterious, no. It is hard work though.


No one dies we just "dramatically" change our perspectives
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Post by LarsMac »

BTW.

If people believe what they are telling you, they are not lying to you.
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Post by AussiePam »

Ahso!;1303710 wrote: Not sad at all. In my lifetime I've become aware and accepting of all this, as opposed to those who continue to walk down dark, mysterious corridors. I've turned on the lights. It's not me you should feel sorry for.

----

Perhaps you m

ean its mysterious why life evolves? Not really. Its actually quite simple.

Do you mean to say what preceded life on earth? I don't know. Cosmology is a subject I know virtually nothing about.

Got me! But its me and where I came from, who and what I am that concerns me.

You read a lot into what I've said. Evolutionary theory and philosophy consists of biology, psychology, everyday life and common sense as well as other avenues of understanding. I'm not asking you to do anything. I'm having a conversation. I'm making my case, thats all.

Incidentally, its not me who insists we came from nothing, thats the religious people. They claim some God that doesn't exist (nothing) created life. Now thats ridiculous. Simply because people have convinced themselves of this story and told it over and over again to the point where it actually makes sense, doesn't mean it makes sense.

Ever hear of the Guinea Worm? Dracunculiasis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Guinea Worm is an interesting little creature. What happens with this worm is people ingest its larva with drinking water. Over the next year or so this larva becomes a three foot worm that makes its way through its host down to the foot/ankle area and causes a burning sensation which causes the host to submerge its feet in water seeking relief. When the host puts its feet in water for relief of the burning sensation, the worm then protrudes out of the skin and lays its eggs thus completing the life cycle of birth, life and reproduction. Thats what every species does. The Guinea Worm's entire existence is to find a host, grow, spend its days getting to the right place for reproduction and then doing so.

People may think we're better than the Guinea Worm but we're not. Former American President Jimmy Carter has spent the last twenty years eradicating Guinea Worm disease and will complete this task sometime in the near future, thus wiping out yet another species. But thats completely understandable because this worm prevents humans from living a healthy productive life. Jimmy Carter is doing work that is important to his species, but he may not see it like that.

Whats also interesting is that when Carter and his team goes into villages in third world countries, the people are hesitant on letting them treat the water to kill the Guinea Worm and even change any aspect of what they are accustomed to doing. Why, because they are religious and superstitious. What Carter does is negotiate with these folks convincing them that the watering hole has been cursed and at a minimum habits such as at least filtering the water to reduce the ingestion of the worm should be done.

If we humans were not so 'tooled' with survival abilities via evolution through natural selection, I can promise you just about any other species would eradicate us too.


Grin. I was just responding to what I thought was your assertion that evolution explains everything and therefore there is no mystery. As to evolution and some worm thingie, that's interesting, but I can't see it has anything to do with the wider issues we're dealing with. I agree on all those things. I have no problem with 'evolution'. You go on, as if it was therefore obvious to all, that because of evolution, there is no God. Or do you go on to say that you only know about evolution and not cosmology or other things outside evolution, and it's still obvious that although you don't KNOW this, there is still no God?

Evolution has to have something to evolve FROM. There must be something there in the first place. How did that something get there? Which is why I mentioned a big bang, which seems to be where current theories are. And not only that, how did that pre-evolution something become animate, alive? Stones might wear away, metals might erode, but they don't evolve. Life forms evolve. You have to have life BEFORE evolution.

So evolution itself neither proves or disproves the existence of God, though you might argue it explains the human search for spirituality, and religionists might argue that the multiplicity and complexity of life, the universe, everything is a bit more than just the ongoing outcome of random chance.
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LarsMac;1303728 wrote: I guess I was lucky.

My parents, grandparents and extended family ALWAYS taught me to think for myself, and to take whatever people tell me with a grain of salt.

I always have.Funny thing is, mine did too. But they didn't do a whole lot of thinking for themselves, I guess. They taught me God was real, and its my opinion that a parent should never tell their child something they are not positive of, and while they may have believed it, they didn't bother making sure it was fact. But I forgive them, they were decent people.

My parents didn't challenge their authorities. Life was different for them, we have all this knowledge literally at our fingertips, and availability to exchange views with people from all over the world. How fortunate we are!
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AussiePam;1303738 wrote: Grin. I was just responding to what I thought was your assertion that evolution explains everything and therefore there is no mystery. As to evolution and some worm thingie, that's interesting, but I can't see it has anything to do with the wider issues we're dealing with. I agree on all those things. I have no problem with 'evolution'. You go on, as if it was therefore obvious to all, that because of evolution, there is no God. Or do you go on to say that you only know about evolution and not cosmology or other things outside evolution, and it's still obvious that although you don't KNOW this, there is still no God?

Evolution has to have something to evolve FROM. There must be something there in the first place. How did that something get there? Which is why I mentioned a big bang, which seems to be where current theories are. And not only that, how did that pre-evolution something become animate, alive? Stones might wear away, metals might erode, but they don't evolve. Life forms evolve. You have to have life BEFORE evolution.

So evolution itself neither proves or disproves the existence of God, though you might argue it explains the human search for spirituality, and religionists might argue that the multiplicity and complexity of life, the universe, everything is a bit more than just the ongoing outcome of random chance.Life began from the elements - sun, water and air.

Only God would be able to prove God's existence (or at least consent to it) and God hasn't done so because God doesn't exist. I'm not going to continue searching for the something that isn't there. I'm sorry, but theres a real world going on and I want to continue to be part of it. Learning about discoveries and information which is actual and factual is my preference.

People can continue to believe in God, but they should not present it as fact unless they can back up the claim when challenged. And not by playing this silly infantile game of telling the challenging party to prove a negative. Thats nonsense!
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LarsMac;1303734 wrote: BTW.

If people believe what they are telling you, they are not lying to you.Not so in my view. If people present something as clear cut fact, it should be clear cut fact. The fact that they present it as fact and have not done the leg work to be sure of that, then thats lying. Omitting truth is a lie.
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Ahso!;1303748 wrote: Life began from the elements - sun, water and air.

Only God would be able to prove God's existence (or at least consent to it) and God hasn't done so because God doesn't exist. I'm not going to continue searching for the something that isn't there. I'm sorry, but theres a real world going on and I want to continue to be part of it. Learning about discoveries and information which is actual and factual is my preference.

People can continue to believe in God, but they should not present it as fact unless they can back up the claim when challenged. And not by playing this silly infantile game of telling the challenging party to prove a negative. Thats nonsense!


To some of us, Ahso, it isn't a game, infantile or otherwise, but I accept that our "discussion" has certainly gone as far as it's going to go. Let's indeed enjoy the world, and keep our minds open to continuing learning and discovering. I'm very happy to leave it there.

:-6
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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1303749 wrote: Not so in my view. If people present something as clear cut fact, it should be clear cut fact. The fact that they present it as fact and have not done the leg work to be sure of that, then thats lying. Omitting truth is a lie.


By definition, a lie is a deliberate falsification. Or, perhaps, a deliberate omission of fact.

While belief does not prove truth, one's lack of belief cannot disprove truth.

Sorry God has not fulfilled your expectations. That happens a lot in this world.
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LarsMac;1303751 wrote: By definition, a lie is a deliberate falsification. Or, perhaps, a deliberate omission of fact.You're right.

LarsMac;1303751 wrote: While belief does not prove truth, one's lack of belief cannot disprove truth.You know, its not like we're talking about an issue that is establihed fact and then discussing whether or not we believe it means this or that. We're talking about the unestablished fact itself. The question has changed from one of "does God exist?' to "Why don't you believe in God too?" while the first question somehow got left behind unanswered.

LarsMac;1303751 wrote: Sorry God has not fulfilled your expectations. That happens a lot in this world.What you probably don't know is that I was very heavily involved with Christianity years ago. I gave God every chance at every opportunity I possibly could. I looked very hard for God and I've always been an inquiring soul about life and God, but God never showed, never did anything either helpful or not. I no longer worship God nor blame God, because both are fallacies, and being the person I am, with the faculties I possess, I've concluded God is a myth, a story, and at one time a necessary lie....but no longer necessary, in fact contrary to what what awaits us.

In my view, we owe it to those loved ones of each of ours who will come later which we will never know, to separate myth from fact, so that their live on earth may be less burdensome. We can begin to change the narrative of the story so they do not find themselves where we are now. We should evolve in our belief system as we do in our bodies.
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Post by Ahso! »

AussiePam;1303750 wrote: To some of us, Ahso, it isn't a game, infantile or otherwise, but I accept that our "discussion" has certainly gone as far as it's going to go. Let's indeed enjoy the world, and keep our minds open to continuing learning and discovering. I'm very happy to leave it there.

:-6That suits me fine. Just one part of your prior post I failed to respond to which is very important.

Though I don't get what you mean by "To some of us, Ahso, it isn't a game, infantile or otherwise". I never said your search for whatever it is you're searching for was foolish. In fact, I have encouraged you to believe in God if you choose to. What I did say was not providing evidence and then passing the buck to the other party to prove a negative was foolish because proving negatives cannot be done. Theres a pretty big distinction there. So evolution itself neither proves or disproves the existence of God, though you might argue it explains the human search for spirituality, and religionists might argue that the multiplicity and complexity of life, the universe, everything is a bit more than just the ongoing outcome of random chance.There is nothing random about evolution through the process of natural selection or even sexual selection for that matter. That is a myth circulated by those who fear change and have not bothered looking into it honestly. Understanding evolution is so much more easy than I could have imagined, its remarkable.

And the thing is, as most people who do look seriously into evolution, they report as I do that it all makes perfect sense. Why? Because its who and what we are. It finds commonality and fellowship with our genes. It verifies and validates everything about us.
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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1303762 wrote:

You know, its not like we're talking about an issue that is establihed fact and then discussing whether or not we believe it means this or that. We're talking about the unestablished fact itself. The question has changed from one of "does God exist?' to "Why don't you believe in God too?" while the first question somehow got left behind unanswered.


Well, actually, we were talking about the mystery.



Ahso!;1303762 wrote:

What you probably don't know is that I was very heavily involved with Christianity years ago. I gave God every chance at every opportunity I possibly could. I looked very hard for God and I've always been an inquiring soul about life and God, but God never showed, never did anything either helpful or not.


I knew that.



Ahso!;1303762 wrote:

I no longer worship God nor blame God, because both are fallacies, and being the person I am, with the faculties I possess, I've concluded God is a myth, a story, and at one time a necessary lie....but no longer necessary, in fact contrary to what what awaits us.

In my view, we owe it to those loved ones of each of ours who will come later which we will never know, to separate myth from fact, so that their live on earth may be less burdensome. We can begin to change the narrative of the story so they do not find themselves where we are now. We should evolve in our belief system as we do in our bodies.


One thing I took from Buddhism:

Whether God is, or isn't, how we behave towards those around us is very important. We represent the Godhead in everything we do in our lives. That ideal of what God is should be the driving force in how we treat our family, our friends, and all who we come in contact with.

With that, you can tell who a person's god is by he or she way they behave toward others.

Some of the people I know, who best evidence the truth of Christianity are Atheists.

Babba Ram Das said, "Be the God you wish to worship."

Many people will simply not understand the meaning of that phrase. But I think you will.
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LarsMac;1303778 wrote: Babba Ram Das said, "Be the God you wish to worship."

Many people will simply not understand the meaning of that phrase. But I think you will.I do understand it but cannot live up to the measure of a 'God'. I doubt anyone can. We cannot help but be what we are. If being peaceful means quietly accepting what others say without judging it, I think thats false for me, but if thats what some choose, so be it. Many of us have brains that just don't sit well with anything other than accuracy and fact. And theres an awful lot of us out there. Believing we choose to be contentious is false. We're just serious minded people.
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Post by ZAP »

Ahso!;1303748 wrote: Life began from the elements - sun, water and air.

Only God would be able to prove God's existence (or at least consent to it) and God hasn't done so because God doesn't exist. I'm not going to continue searching for the something that isn't there. I'm sorry, but theres a real world going on and I want to continue to be part of it. Learning about discoveries and information which is actual and factual is my preference.

People can continue to believe in God, but they should not present it as fact unless they can back up the claim when challenged. And not by playing this silly infantile game of telling the challenging party to prove a negative. Thats nonsense!


This discussion seems to have evolved from the thread on Atheism, wherein you stated that it has been proven that there is no God. I asked how? That hasn't been answered to my knowledge.

Throughout history there have been non believers who have tried to debunk miracles, visions, the Bible, the Koran, Gilgamesh, Buddha, Jesus, religions, extraterrestrials, beliefs of others that they didn't share.

My feelings on religion or beliefs in general are that if it gives comfort to the person believing, if it makes him/her a better, more understanding person and doesn't harm others in the process, then it must be a good thing.
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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1303785 wrote: I do understand it but cannot live up to the measure of a 'God'. I doubt anyone can. We cannot help but be what we are. If being peaceful means quietly accepting what others say without judging it, I think thats false for me, but if thats what some choose, so be it. Many of us have brains that just don't sit well with anything other than accuracy and fact. And theres an awful lot of us out there. Believing we choose to be contentious is false. We're just serious minded people.


So, okay. I was wrong.
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Zapata;1303793 wrote: This discussion seems to have evolved from the thread on Atheism, wherein you stated that it has been proven that there is no God. I asked how? That hasn't been answered to my knowledge.

Throughout history there have been non believers who have tried to debunk miracles, visions, the Bible, the Koran, Gilgamesh, Buddha, Jesus, religions, extraterrestrials, beliefs of others that they didn't share.

My feelings on religion or beliefs in general are that if it gives comfort to the person believing, if it makes him/her a better, more understanding person and doesn't harm others in the process, then it must be a good thing.The proof of non existence lies within the lack of evidence of existence. Thats the closest I think one can come to proving a negative. Produce God and its a finished concern.

Your statement assumes that none of those niceties would or could occur without belief in God, and I'm not buying that. The only thing proven there is the placebo affect.

The very fact that our species is having this contentious conversation suggests to me we needs to. Religion and the false beliefs that are attached to it is not healthy for our species any longer and so there is a fierce dialogue taking place. Thats how important this subject is.

But you and LM right about the conversation having changed from mystery of life and death to this. For that I apologize.

LarsMac, any thoughts on the life after death question?
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1303800 wrote: So, okay. I was wrong.Probably not for you. Thats Okay!
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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1303801 wrote: ...

LarsMac, any thoughts on the life after death question?


I think the real mystery of life will only be solved when we truly learn inter-species communication and can grasp the perspective of some of the other species that share our world.
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Post by theia »

Ahso!;1303488 wrote: What is it you find mysterious about life and death? For me there isn't much mystery to it. Wondrous, yes - mysterious, no. It is hard work though.


In my work I have contact with new born babies and older people who are nearing the end of their lives. I'm not sure whether its the difference or the sameness between the two groups that mystifies me. But I sometimes wonder if the inbetweentime, or life, is just the blink of an eye and not half as important as I think it is :confused:
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LarsMac;1303807 wrote: I think the real mystery of life will only be solved when we truly learn inter-species communication and can grasp the perspective of some of the other species that share our world.What would you think we would learn from lets say...a cow? I'm not sure what another species with smaller brains could tell us. Of course thats the reason they cannot communicate other than in tone of 'Moo'.

That reminds me of a lady who I learned of who revolutionized cow-chutes out west in the 80's and 90's. Her name is Temple Grandin. Theres an HBO movie out about her laying around the internet. Its worth the watch. What Temple's story reveals to us is, yes, some of us can in fact do quite well in interpreting the actions and sounds made by other species'.

Its quite a story. Dr. Grandin also lectures.
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Post by Ahso! »

theia;1303808 wrote: In my work I have contact with new born babies and older people who are nearing the end of their lives. I'm not sure whether its the difference or the sameness between the two groups that mystifies me. But I sometimes wonder if the inbetweentime, or life, is just the blink of an eye and not half as important as I think it is :confused:What do you mean by inbetweentime? What takes place between life and Death? If thats what you mean, then It would only seem normal to me that one would be concerned with whatever is the focus at the time. For you its birth and death I guess. For me, since I'm not involved in your field, it isn't. At death, I'll probably become concerned with all those thoughts and feeling associated with it. I do recognize your ability to empathize though, if that is in fact what is happening with you.

I'd think it takes a strong person to do what you do. I doubt its for me, but I'm sure I could do it if I had to. I cared for my 93 year old mother for the last 21 months of her life.
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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1303809 wrote: What would you think we would learn from lets say...a cow? I'm not sure what another species with smaller brains could tell us. Of course thats the reason they cannot communicate other than in tone of 'Moo'.




You'd be surprised, I suspect.

I have found that just about every critter can teach us something.

When I was growing up, I spent a lot of time on grandparents farm.

Cows are smarter than most people give them credit.

I don't expect one to ever win the Nobel prize or anything, but you shouldn't be so quick to discount their thought process.

I was actually thinking of some critters a little further up the food chain, though.
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LarsMac;1303813 wrote: You'd be surprised, I suspect.

I have found that just about every critter can teach us something.

When I was growing up, I spent a lot of time on grandparents farm.

Cows are smarter than most people give them credit.

I don't expect one to ever win the Nobel prize or anything, but you shouldn't be so quick to discount their thought process.

I was actually thinking of some critters a little further up the food chain, though.I completely agree. There is no 'smarter' species. I'm just saying that wonder requires a larger brain like ours. I have to believe just about every species' brains have been scanned and dissected (unfortunately) both dead and alive in an effort to find similarities to the human brain. Its not like I've ever seen an actual cow or anything else other that humans doing the thinking pose thing.

But yes, all life is wondrous, beautiful and worth considering.

Actually, I've heard that the Dolphin may be about as equipped with cognitive abilities such as ours. I've never really looked into it though. I should put that on my 'to do' list.

But I don't have a 'to do' list. I'll get around to it, I'm sure.
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