Destroyed Lives

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:35 am

mikeinie;1276961 wrote: Good on China.

Fecken drug smugglers should learn a lesson and so should the West in how to deal with drug dealers.

They are nothing but vermin that are guilty of destroying lives. How many have they killed with the drugs they sell to kids.

Not too many British drug smugglers will be going in that direction very soon.

We always make excuses for the scum of our society: mentally ill, abused, grew up in a bad neighborhoodâ€¦. Too bad, a bottom feeding drug smuggler is just that, and got no less than deserved.I'm not arguing with your opinion but I'm interested in exploring this.

How do you define a "Destroyed Life?" And assuming a destroyed life would be opposite of a "productive" life: what is a productive life?

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:08 am

Well, destroying a life in the terms of this situation:

This person was in the business of making a personal profit by supplying a highly addictive, illegal drug to markets that will end up being used by what were once innocent kids, who through circumstances or manipulation have become addicted to the substance. Once addicted the user then becomes part of a supply and demand market, where the supply is required to fulfill an addiction, creating a never ending demand for the product. Thus increased profits for the drug dealer.

Life as the addict knows or knew it will or has changed dramatically to the point of the breakdown of a family unit, maybe needing to enter into a life of crime, or prostitution to continue the support of the addiction. Thus destroying the life of the user, and possible of those who loved the now addict.

Like all businesses there is a supply chain. The person who was executed in China was part of that supply chain. The heroine he was going to transport, and eventually have sold into the market, for his own personal profit, could well have been the supply that would have been the first ‘hit’ for some kid.

That kid, could have potentially ended up overdosing at some point and may well die, or may have ended up killing someone else in a botched robbery to access money to continue the supply of the drug to feed his addiction.

Therefore this execution may have in fact saved a few lives.

A productive life in the sense that you refer to, in my opinion is anything that you do that is not driven by the addictive need for a substance. If you stayed on you chair in your living room the rest of your life and watched TV, but did so as your free choice and under your own free will, you would have productive life vs the life as an addict.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:16 am

Thanks for that, Mike. Can I then take away from your answer that a "destroyed life" is an "addicted life"?

Why is watching tv a choice and taking drugs for the first or second or third time not a choice?

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:27 am

Have you ever heard the term â€œthe first hit is freeâ€

This is because this is where the only choice is made with addictive drugs is the first one. So when the opportunity presents itself, a dealer will give a vulnerable person the first hit for free. After that they can charge you whatever they want, because you no longer have a real choice.

That is why it is an addiction. It becomes a physical need vs a physical choice.

The difference with marijuana is that the properties of that drug are not addictive; in fact they are less addictive than tobacco, so in the cases of that drug it would be a matter of choice.

That is why these drugs are often referred to as â€˜recreational drugsâ€™ because they are taken by choice, and not by addictive habits.

Now, donâ€™t get me wrong, there is a difference also between a physically addictive drug, and a physiologically addictive drug. Marijuana, like cocaine, with repetitive use can become physiologically addictive. In other words, the user has gotten use to the regular use of the drug and feels they need to take it in order to have a good time. But his is not a physical addiction.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:43 am

mikeinie;1277007 wrote: Have you ever heard the term “the first hit is free”

This is because this is where the only choice is made with addictive drugs is the first one. So when the opportunity presents itself, a dealer will give a vulnerable person the first hit for free. After that they can charge you whatever they want, because you no longer have a real choice.

That is why it is an addiction. It becomes a physical need vs a physical choice.

The difference with marijuana is that the properties of that drug are not addictive; in fact they are less addictive than tobacco, so in the cases of that drug it would be a matter of choice.

That is why these drugs are often referred to as ‘recreational drugs’ because they are taken by choice, and not by addictive habits.

Now, don’t get me wrong, there is a difference also between a physically addictive drug, and a physiologically addictive drug. Marijuana, like cocaine, with repetitive use can become physiologically addictive. In other words, the user has gotten use to the regular use of the drug and feels they need to take it in order to have a good time. But his is not a physical addiction.I completely understand and appreciate the perspective you offer. So, for the discussion on the other thread I'm figuring you would exclude marijuana.

For the purposes of this thread, since addicted lives is one definition of destroyed lives, what else defines destroyed lives and what is it about addiction that destroys lives?

Jazzy · Post by **Jazzy** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:48 am

I would like to express my opinion using a song.

Destroyer Lyrics by Kinks

Met a girl called lola and I took her back to my place

Feelin guilty, feelin scared, hidden cameras everywhere

Stop! hold on. stay in control

Girl, I want you here with me

But Im really not as cool as Id like to be

cause theres a red, under my bed

And theres a little yellow man in my head

And theres a true blue inside of me

That keeps stoppin me, touchin ya, watchin ya, lovin ya

Paranoia, the destroyer.

Paranoia, the destroyer.

Well I fell asleep, then I woke feelin kinda queer

Lola looked at me and said, ooh you look so weird.

She said, man, theres really something wrong with you.

One day youre gonna self-destruct.

Youre up, youre down, I cant work you out

You get a good thing goin then you blow yourself out.

Silly boy ya self-destroyer. silly boy ya self-destroyer

Silly boy you got so much to live for

So much to aim for, so much to try for

You blowing it all with paranoia

Youre so insecure you self-destroyer

(and it goes like this, here it goes)

Paranoia, the destroyer

(here it goes again)

Paranoia, the destroyer

Dr. dr. help me please, I know youll understand

Theres a time device inside of me, Im a self-destructin man

Theres a red, under my bed

And theres a little green man in my head

And he said, youre not goin crazy, youre just a bit sad

cause theres a man in ya, knawin ya, tearin ya into two.

Silly boy ya self-destroyer.

Paranoia, the destroyer

Self-destroyer, wreck your health

Destroy friends, destroy yourself

The time device of self-destruction

Light the fuse and start eruption

(yea, it goes like this, here it goes)

Paranoia, the destroyer

(heres to paranoia)

Paranoia, the destroyer

(hey hey, here it goes)

Paranoia, the destroyer

(and it goes like this)

Paranoia, the destroyer

(and it goes like this.)

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:03 am

Are you saying mental illness destroys, Jazzy?

Jazzy · Post by **Jazzy** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:49 am

Ahso!;1277021 wrote: Are you saying mental illness destroys, Jazzy?

Ever had a loved one that has/or is diagnosed with Alzheimers? Ever sit nights crying because your loved one no longer knows who you are? I don't like the word destroy but I will accept this word from you. Certain mental illnesses destroy a persons past, present, hopes and dreams. They are hopelessly delussional and see things we cannot. Ever deal with this? I hope you never have to but to maybe understand, you need to. Go visit a nursing home in your area and ask to visit with an Alzheimers patient. Bet that patient (who doesn't know you) thinks you are their son or husband. Take the test and go try it.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:55 am

Jazzy;1277039 wrote: Ever had a loved one that has/or is diagnosed with Alzheimers? Ever sit nights crying because your loved one no longer knows who you are? I don't like the word destroy but I will accept this word from you. Certain mental illnesses destroy a persons past, present, hopes and dreams. They are hopelessly delussional and see things we cannot. Ever deal with this? I hope you never have to but to maybe understand, you need to. Go visit a nursing home in your area and ask to visit with an Alzheimers patient. Bet that patient (who doesn't know you) thinks you are there son or husband. Take the test and go try it.Both my father and grandmother died with Alzheimer's.

The Question of the thread topic is a philosophical one regarding how we as a society define destroyed lives. Is destroyed lives those that cannot function in a society and contribute?

farmer giles · Post by **farmer giles** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:57 am

Jazzy;1277039 wrote: Ever had a loved one that has/or is diagnosed with Alzheimers? Ever sit nights crying because your loved one no longer knows who you are? I don't like the word destroy but I will accept this word from you. Certain mental illnesses destroy a persons past, present, hopes and dreams. They are hopelessly delussional and see things we cannot. Ever deal with this? I hope you never have to but to maybe understand, you need to. Go visit a nursing home in your area and ask to visit with an Alzheimers patient. Bet that patient (who doesn't know you) thinks you are their son or husband. Take the test and go try it.
fantastic post :-6

gave me goose bumps all over

Jazzy · Post by **Jazzy** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:15 pm

Ahso!;1277021 wrote: Are you saying mental illness destroys, Jazzy?

You are changing your question now. I answered this question you asked. I asked you questions back but you skirted around them. When you answer my questions, I will be more than happy to continue.

Jazzy · Post by **Jazzy** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:19 pm

Ahso!;1277041 wrote: Both my father and grandmother died with Alzheimer's.

The Question of the thread topic is a philosophical one regarding how we as a society define destroyed lives. Is destroyed lives those that cannot function in a society and contribute?

Do you define the loss of your father and grandmother as destroyed lives? Were they able to function in a society and contribute?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:23 pm

Jazzy;1277077 wrote: You are changing your question now. I answered this question you asked. I asked you questions back but you skirted around them. When you answer my questions, I will be more than happy to continue. ;)I answered your question, Jazzy. Perhaps you missed it.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:24 pm

I'm lost!

Jazzy · Post by **Jazzy** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:01 pm

Ahso!;1277081 wrote: I'm lost!

How can you be lost in the thread you created unless it was a lost cause to begin with?

I am still here and willing to put this back on track but it appears to be a train wreck to me.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:02 pm

A "destroyed life" cannot be defined by any given society as a whole rather by the individuals themselves that feel worse than they wish to be

Quintessentially, the term "destroyed life" cannot be applied until after one has died never having enjoyed their life from the moment one could ever possibly ponder the idea anything had changed

Quite frankly everyone has the power to change their fate. This means, wholeheartedly, that dwelling on the past is defined by an outside underlining cause while one who dwells on the future has only themselves to blame but only equal in proportion to the level in which the said individual has control over their own fate as aforementioned

It's not a question whether "destroyed life" exists rather to whom is to blame

kazalala · Post by **kazalala** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:15 am

I think, quite often, misguided, stupid, ignorant and even uncaring parents can destroy a life. Pushing and encouraging even, their own children over to the other side of the tracks, helped along by the lack of structure from society and authority, until they have no other path in life than the one they were pushed on to, ending up in young offenders homes, then prison, then no way out of a life that was destroyed in childhood. I think a lot of lives are destroyed in childhood.

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:17 am

kazalala;1277328 wrote: I think, quite often, misguided, stupid, ignorant and even uncaring parents can destroy a life. Pushing and encouraging even, their own children over to the other side of the tracks, helped along by the lack of structure from society and authority, until they have no other path in life than the one they were pushed on to, ending up in young offenders homes, then prison, then no way out of a life that was destroyed in childhood. I think a lot of lives are destroyed in childhood.

True, I would agree with that.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:27 am

kazalala;1277328 wrote: I think, quite often, misguided, stupid, ignorant and even uncaring parents can destroy a life. Pushing and encouraging even, their own children over to the other side of the tracks, helped along by the lack of structure from society and authority, until they have no other path in life than the one they were pushed on to, ending up in young offenders homes, then prison, then no way out of a life that was destroyed in childhood. I think a lot of lives are destroyed in childhood.Thanks, Kaz,

I guess its fair to say then that 'destroyed lives" are those that have difficulty assimilating into society?

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:57 am

Ahso!;1277337 wrote: Thanks, Kaz,

I guess its fair to say then that 'destroyed lives" are those that have difficulty assimilating into society?

No, I don’t think she is saying that.

I think that it is more along the lines that the personal potential that one has the ability to reach and achieve in life is interfered with in a negative way by an outside influence, thus never allowing that person to achieve the heights that they may have been capable of reaching, or/and has such an impact that the individual cannot proceed with their own personal development due to the trauma of the interference.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:14 am

mikeinie;1277361 wrote: No, I don’t think she is saying that.

I think that it is more along the lines that the personal potential that one has the ability to reach and achieve in life is interfered with in a negative way by an outside influence, thus never allowing that person to achieve the heights that they may have been capable of reaching, or/and has such an impact that the individual cannot proceed with their own personal development due to the trauma of the interference.Yes, after re-reading Kaz's post I think you're much closer than I am. And that goes to the second question of what is successful living.

It's interesting that many, including me at certain times may say that achieving "love," whatever that means, is successful living, which would simply the entire query to some degree.

"Potential" is a good word worth defining. Achieving potential then is key to circumventing "destroyed living"? Or perhaps even just the struggle to reach potential would qualify? The becoming but never being syndrome, I like to call it.

Where do we find rest - in death?

Jazzy · Post by **Jazzy** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:17 am

May I ask you, Ahso, for your thoughts on what you consider destroyed lives?

kazalala · Post by **kazalala** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:29 am

Ahso!;1277337 wrote: Thanks, Kaz,

I guess its fair to say then that 'destroyed lives" are those that have difficulty assimilating into society?

mikeinie;1277361 wrote: No, I donâ€™t think she is saying that.

I think that it is more along the lines that the personal potential that one has the ability to reach and achieve in life is interfered with in a negative way by an outside influence, thus never allowing that person to achieve the heights that they may have been capable of reaching, or/and has such an impact that the individual cannot proceed with their own personal development due to the trauma of the interference.

yes Mike thats basically what i meant

Also, that life in my opinion has been wasted, and subsequently these wasted lives can go on to destroy more lives, and bring life in to the world only to replicate their own sadly. And so the vicious circle begins.

Of course this is only one perception of a destroyed life, or how a life can be destroyed.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:38 am

Jazzy;1277373 wrote: May I ask you, Asho, for your thoughts on what you consider destroyed lives? Sure. Its an open question to me - thats why I'm exploring it. The idea for me is to recognize that most of what we think is not necessarily truth, but merely our truth as we've defined it. We are however very capable of changing these ways we think and I enjoy challenging conventional thought and reasoning. Not because its wrong, but perhaps it needs to be re-examined and possibly change with the times.

By definition, I'm an outlaw, which means I stand outside conventional thinking and ask questions. I'm curious more than anything. It's my playfulness and what children do instinctively before we begin messing them up>:)

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:44 am

kazalala;1277377 wrote: yes Mike thats basically what i meant

Also, that life in my opinion has been wasted, and subsequently these wasted lives can go on to destroy more lives, and bring life in to the world only to replicate their own sadly. And so the vicious circle begins.

Of course this is only one perception of a destroyed life, or how a life can be destroyed.Would you say this is prevalent?

Now, I know its conventional at this point to point at the current generation and blame them for being disrespectful and so on, but I'm hoping that doesn't happen in this thread. Where ever we now are is a result of where we've been.

kazalala · Post by **kazalala** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:53 am

Ahso!;1277384 wrote: Would you say this is prevalent?

Now, I know its conventional at this point to point at the current generation and blame them for being disrespectful and so on, but I'm hoping that doesn't happen in this thread. Where ever we now are is a result of where we've been.

maybe, im not really sure about that

Probably not in far flung places that dont put a huge amount of importance on material things.

I dont think its the current generation no, its probably been happening for generations and generations, and will probably keep on for quite some more yet

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:57 am

kazalala;1277328 wrote: I think, quite often, misguided, stupid, ignorant and even uncaring parents can destroy a life. Pushing and encouraging even, their own children over to the other side of the tracks, helped along by the lack of structure from society and authority, until they have no other path in life than the one they were pushed on to, ending up in young offenders homes, then prison, then no way out of a life that was destroyed in childhood. I think a lot of lives are destroyed in childhood.

I think alot of lives are destroyed in childhood as well but I personally don't find such to be peculiar to parents that are considered to be "mean" by most of society...

I also define "mean" as in brainwashing a child to be religious(Obviously when that religion is taught literally and not using mere parables, which I happen to not mind at all) as well as parents that continuously scold children simply out of a nervous reaction.

Children are bombarded every day with continuous "NO!" until a child is forced to act against their parents because it's the only way they can have a sense of identity...They're controlled like machines from the moment they breath oxygen unaided. It's why people get the phrase "Terrible 2's" because they quite simply wish to be their own persons and the only way to do it is to go against the "NO!"

kazalala · Post by **kazalala** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:14 am

K.Snyder;1277581 wrote: I think alot of lives are destroyed in childhood as well but I personally don't find such to be peculiar to parents that are considered to be "mean" by most of society...

I also define "mean" as in brainwashing a child to be religious(Obviously when that religion is taught literally and not using mere parables, which I happen to not mind at all) as well as parents that continuously scold children simply out of a nervous reaction.

Children are bombarded every day with continuous "NO!" until a child is forced to act against their parents because it's the only way they can have a sense of identity...They're controlled like machines from the moment they breath oxygen unaided. It's why people get the phrase "Terrible 2's" because they quite simply wish to be their own persons and the only way to do it is to go against the "NO!"

Oh yes ,,, there are a lot of different ways to go wrong in bringing up a child. Some can do the worng thing with entirely good intentions,, like i said some are misguided or ignorant, i dont mean ignorant in an insulting way. Its the ones who dont seem to care at all that bother me ,, and the ones who just cant seem to be bothered. Yes i have seen it when parents are too strict and overbearing, not leting children play, or making them think they are doing soemthign wrong just cos they were being a bit loud etc,,, thats their hang up ,, wanting to look like the perfect parent ,, caring more about what people think of them then how they are bringing up their child.

Dont get me wrong, we are none of us perfect, im certainly not, and did make mistakes with my own children. After all the first time you have a child is the first time you have the massive responsibilty of bringing up a child.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:22 pm

kazalala;1277693 wrote: Oh yes ,,, there are a lot of different ways to go wrong in bringing up a child. Some can do the worng thing with entirely good intentions,, like i said some are misguided or ignorant, i dont mean ignorant in an insulting way. Its the ones who dont seem to care at all that bother me ,, and the ones who just cant seem to be bothered. Yes i have seen it when parents are too strict and overbearing, not leting children play, or making them think they are doing soemthign wrong just cos they were being a bit loud etc,,, thats their hang up ,, wanting to look like the perfect parent ,, caring more about what people think of them then how they are bringing up their child.

Dont get me wrong, we are none of us perfect, im certainly not, and did make mistakes with my own children. After all the first time you have a child is the first time you have the massive responsibilty of bringing up a child.

I'd never gotten you wrong to begin with kazalala...:yh_wink :yh_kiss I just thought it was well worth mentioning how overbearing parents can tend to romanticize rebellious behavior...After all it doesn't matter who's to blame after the unchangeable, rather, how to change the rebellious after we understand who's to blame.

Quintessentially, in my mind, the only people that are qualified in defining "Destroyed Lives" are those themselves.

kazalala · Post by **kazalala** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:14 am

K.Snyder;1280524 wrote: I'd never gotten you wrong to begin with kazalala...:yh_wink :yh_kiss I just thought it was well worth mentioning how overbearing parents can tend to romanticize rebellious behavior...After all it doesn't matter who's to blame after the unchangeable, rather, how to change the rebellious after we understand who's to blame.

Quintessentially, in my mind, the only people that are qualified in defining "Destroyed Lives" are those themselves.

yes thats a good statement, but some people who have had their lives destroyed may not even relise or acknowledge it

i have witnessed a mother blatantly lying for her kids so they woldnt get in trouble, and worse than that, her children were stood there listening and knew she was lying for them! What kind of path is that setting them on? Till they get to an age where it wont matter how much their mother protests it "wasnt them" it will be too late.