Basic Evolutionary Theory -- What is it?

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Ahso!
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Post by Ahso! »

I placed this in the philosophy forum because I'd like Cobert to have a look, and I have the impression he likes to stick to this forum exclusively. His input and scrutiny is important to me.

Since the Evolutionists/Creationists thread has most likely gone its course, I'd like to explore this topic itself. I am by no means an expert on the subject, but from seeing who else here are evolutionists, I figure my back is sufficiently covered with anything I can't answer.

I'm of the opinion that evolution is a difficult subject for some only because they have not looked into it, and its fine to reject it of course, but at least know what you are rejecting. And for those that just feel intimidated by the subject or are simply too busy to read Darwin's work, this thread may prove to be fun entertainment and enlightening.

So off we go!

The theory of evolution is the study or observation of organisms to their environment, or the transformation of species. That's it! Nothing more or less. Surprised? I was!

There are three principles Charles Darwin proposed that explains this phenomena;

1) Natural Selection

2) Sexual Selection

3) Pangenesis (Lamarckian selection)

I'd like to stop there for now and tackle these principles each in its own dedicated thread, but for now there's plenty here to chew on.

The first question or automatic objection that inevitably arises in this discussion is: Why is it only a "theory", or, It's only a theory.

Anyone else familiar with evolutionary theory want to take that one on?
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Post by Clodhopper »

:wah: Well, I can't claim to have read it, but I believe that Darwin published a theory of evolution, not conclusive proof. He didn't know a great deal we now do, not least the work on sweet peas by Mendel (I think it was) which filled one of the gaps in his theory which was the mechanism by which natural selection worked - genes.

Darwin's contribution was the leap of mind that conceived the theory and found some supporting evidence. He did not find and never claimed to find conclusive proof. However, everything discovered on the matter since then has, as far as I know, supported rather than contradicted the theory.

As to why it is still called a theory, well, partly habit I would think. But also, what is the point at which accumulating evidence become conclusive proof? I would think we are pretty much there, myself, but I have to accept the possibility that some other, third theory might occur. Or God rips the sky open and yells, "Yaah!" Suckers!" Which I have to say I consider pretty unlikely...
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Post by joey2000 »

It's "only" a theory because it hasn't been proven (beyond any reasonable doubt). Sure is a lot of compelling evidence though.

That was easy. Next. :cool:

PS: I haven't found a commonly agreed on definition, although obviously you have the gist of it. Where did you get it?
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Post by yaaarrrgg »

joey2000;1266414 wrote: It's "only" a theory because it hasn't been proven (beyond any reasonable doubt). Sure is a lot of compelling evidence though.

That was easy. Next. :cool:

PS: I haven't found a commonly agreed on definition, although obviously you have the gist of it. Where did you get it?


In science "theory" has special meaning. Such as "the theory of special relativity." Ideas start off as a "hypothesis" and eventually graduate to become a "theory" after they survive repeated tests for falsification. In science, "theory" means something like "a comprehensive model." Even gravity is a theory; it's a proposed explanation for observed phenomenon.
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Post by joey2000 »

Sorry, I meant a definition for "evolution."
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Post by Ahso! »

joey2000;1266414 wrote: PS: I haven't found a commonly agreed on definition, although obviously you have the gist of it. Where did you get it?What definitions have you found? That definition is commonly agreed on by those who've studied it.
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Post by joey2000 »

Google it, you'll find a bunch, but again they are all driving at pretty much the same thing....
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Post by Ahso! »

joey2000;1266456 wrote: Google it, you'll find a bunch, but again they are all driving at pretty much the same thing....How do you know none are not commonly accepted if you just google? what definition is yours?
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Post by Lon »

While Darwins's book at the time of it's writing and in the ensuing years may have been considered a Theory, discoveries made in recent years now make Evolution pretty factual. Some still are hung up on the THEORY THING.

Richard Dawkins book "The Greatest Show on Earth" does a pretty good job of making the case.
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Post by Ahso! »

Ian;1266689 wrote: It's a physical interpretation of a none physical force.

Earths DNA written by a Mammal.

The missing link stole two of my chromosomes :(That's interesting, Ian, But I'm not sure what you mean. Would you mind elaborating a bit?
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Post by Ahso! »

Ian;1266692 wrote: On what point in particular?The first and second.
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Post by Ahso! »

Ian;1270453 wrote: How come your name as Changed? and the signiture? are you a twit?I hope I'm not a twit, Ian. I decided to change the name because i no longer wanted to use my real name and my father used to say "Ahso!" often.
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Post by freethinkingthuthseeker »

basic evolutionary is still a theory waiting for any evidence of a link between two seperate species let alone clkasses of animals after 150 years and literally millions of fossils. bang those rocks together guys
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Post by Ahso! »

freethinkingthuthseeker;1270976 wrote: basic evolutionary is still a theory waiting for any evidence of a link between two seperate species let alone clkasses of animals after 150 years and literally millions of fossils. bang those rocks together guysYou should probably read the first page of the thread. This has already been addressed.
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Post by Elvira »

joey2000;1266414 wrote: I haven't found a commonly agreed on definition, although obviously you have the gist of it. Where did you get it?


This is the one that I go by - it was used in my degree course text, and I find simple helps! :)

The gradual process by which species develop from earlier forms.
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Post by Ahso! »

fuzzywuzzy;1274915 wrote: Then communism (Stalinism/Maoism ) must be evolutionary.

For anyone to disolve human existence to the product of Bees doesn't sound very evolutionary to me.


It's a common misconception that evolution means progress - it doesn't! When thinking in evolutionary terms it's vital to leave value judgements aside, otherwise it's impossible to understand.

It may help to read about evolution. It's actually quite simple to get. The following link may help.

Understanding Evolution
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Post by spot »

Ahso!;1266405 wrote: The first question or automatic objection that inevitably arises in this discussion is: Why is it only a "theory", or, It's only a theory.It's a theory because it's a model of a complicated topic.

One step up from a theory is a law. There are quite a few scientific laws. They're all about extremely simple issues. They take two or three of four variables and say how those variables are constrained by each other. Evolution has extremely more variables than that.

If you have a law you can plug in measurements and get an exact answer to the constrained observable.

In a theory you have a model, of a larger aspect of the real world, which will make verifiable predictions. Variation between subsequent observation and the prediction allows the theory to be refined.

If someone has an alternative (not merely a refined) theory relating to that area of observations, you can choose either. People will choose the one which provides the greater accuracy in predicting new observations. They call that theory "more powerful". It's regarded, in consequence, as more elegant. It's often simpler to express too.

The only invariable part of the process is the underlying reality which is being measured. For that area of knowledge there are many possible theories. In observing species, alive and through the fossil record, Natural Selection and Sexual Selection and Genetics provide the most powerful theory we have yet described, and we call it Evolution. The first two are historically ascribed to Charles Darwin.
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Post by freethinkingthuthseeker »

Ahso!;1270977 wrote: You should probably read the first page of the thread. This has already been addressed.


thank you, i have but i know that this THEORY,yes it remains a theory after 150 years but is not a true FACT,is well understood by me. However the ideas around step by step evolution from organism to "modern catagories of life forms is very sketchy and the eveidence produced so far from the incredibly few fossils that merely suggest a possible change from one class of life to another are wholly based on fossilised comparisons of only somewhat similar structures.

This fact actually can be as credibly applied to the idea of One Designer as to evolutionary theory.

There is no cogent explanation of how the smallest organisims which actually contain 7 essential independent componants as far as we are currently aware ansd we undoubetly still have a lot of learning to do, that to "evolve" at once is astronomically unlikely.

There remains outstanding the cornerstone that could sustain this theory of what the first source of life was and where the chemistry for this came from.

A meteor!! Come on, alice is wonderland time!

Furthermore the later learning about DNA equally supports the Principle of a consistant designer. For example, we may differ from the primates incredib;y by our mental capacity. imagination, science, culture, technology, and awesome sophistication yet have a very close correlation of genes and chromosones.

If we are supposed to be descended from monkeys which apparently happened around 65 to 40 million years ago and the first simple organic molecules occurred 4000 mill years ago, taken together, yet the first known animal with recognizable limbs—Acanthostega—is believed to be the first capable of coming onto land, and was apparently poorly adapted for such habitat occurred 315 mill years ago, it is simply incredulous. The faith in the idea of Natural selection is touching but tragically misguided.

The chances at every stage of evolution of new species emerging is staggeringly high. To apply each individually progression, which to my knowledge has never been comprehensively done, hence it remians a mere theory 9 yes I know some scientists bang on about theorys, being accepted knowledge but they do draw the line at calling it a principle of fUndamental truth

In reality if evolution was truth tro go from a simple organisim - and BTW even the simplest contain plenty! - I suspect it would take way longer in billions and billions to get from that to the incredible intellect we still alone have.

If primates have been around longer than us , why has no primate "evolved" the simple capacity to make music? To even collaboratively make a simple rhythm?

What on earth did an Elephant evolve from?

WHO, wrote the DNA CODE???

I will believe in evolution when monkeys learn to drum.

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Post by spot »

freethinkingthuthseeker;1274987 wrote: it remains a theory after 150 years but is not a true FACTNo theory is true. Theories are either weak or powerful when compared with each other. Truth isn't a concept that applies to any theory.

On the other hand, in the area of knowledge covered by the theory of evolution, nobody has this thing you call "FACT". If they did then it would, I assume, explain everything about the topic and be entirely consistent with the evidence. Is there such a FACT? If there is then I agree, should it also be the truth, the theory of evolution would be irrelevant, pointless and superseded.

What you have as an alternative is a BELIEF, rooted presumably in FAITH. While your FAITH no doubt does you credit, your BELIEF is necessarily arbitrary and shallow, based solely on a consensus among your fellow BELIEVERS and guided by whatever Holy Writ you collectively adhere to. For anyone unhappy enough not to have accepted your particular FAITH, your BELIEFS are by definition - excuse my unavoidable bluntness - meaningless claptrap. This is, no doubt, their loss but it's obviously always going to be so.

The scientific process, unlike your BELIEF, is exploratory and plastic. It's also better funded.
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Post by Ahso! »

I appreciate the post, FTTS!freethinkingthuthseeker;1274987 wrote: thank you,You're Welcome!:)

freethinkingthuthseeker;1274987 wrote: WHO, wrote the DNA CODE???People wrote the DNA code because that's how we communicate with one another. We use mathematical and grammatical expressions. Because we understand DNA as we do does not mean that is how it was "written." Incidentally, it is science that wrote, or if you prefer, deciphered the code. Those same scientists that understand evolution. Were you aware that because of our understanding of natural selection, we were able to understand DNA? JSTOR: uses of evolutionary theory in the human genome project

freethinkingthuthseeker;1274987 wrote: I will believe in evolution when monkeys learn to drum.It's obvious you view evolutionary theory in linear terms which is simply inaccurate and it's equally obvious you've never actually read any of it. You should though because everything about you, including your religious beliefs are in fact due to evolutionary events. Even God evolved!:)
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Post by K.Snyder »

Human beings, as you know them, evolved from blue green algae

:yh_eyerol I know I'm going to catch hell for that but IT'S TRUE!
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Post by fuzzywuzzy »

evolution huh?

"The kings control the soldiers, and the rest live in awh of them, ignoring the passing of their sons." There's a deeper meaning to this than you would see on the face of it . But I won't bore you .

We haven't evolved, no matter what bullshit you attach to it. we invented computers ...so what?
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Post by spot »

It depends rather on what you mean by "we", fuzz. Societies don't evolve, cultures don't evolve, individuals don't evolve, other than by dubious skin-deep analogy. Species evolve.
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Post by Ahso! »

spot;1275048 wrote: It depends rather on what you mean by "we", fuzz. Societies don't evolve, cultures don't evolve, individuals don't evolve, other than by dubious skin-deep analogy. Species evolve.Biologically speaking I agree! There is a new thought emerging though that applies evolutionary theory to everything, and its very interesting and amazingly easy to see once tuned into the idea.



I believe all the above evolve, but again, thinking of evolution as progress is simply inaccurate. I'm not sure if that's what you implied, but it seems to be what fuzzywuzzy means.

Think of evolution as change, nothing more. Don't attach any value to it. There is only one measure for evolution and that is survival. There have been many species and variations of species that did not survive, but still evolved to the point of extinction.

Humans are not the top of any chain in evolutionary terms, in fact many other species enjoy what we would consider enhanced abilities to ours in certain area's. Take the turtle for instance, the make up of the turtles eyes give it the ability to see more colours. We see only three primary colours while the turtle sees four. Not to mention the fact that the turtle out lives us big time. That's just one example of one species - there are many, many others.

All in all though the human being has the most tools at its disposal for survival purposes and we use them exactly as a Darwinian thinker would expect.
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Post by yaaarrrgg »

freethinkingthuthseeker;1274987 wrote:

This fact actually can be as credibly applied to the idea of One Designer as to evolutionary theory.

There is no cogent explanation of how the smallest organisims which actually contain 7 essential independent componants as far as we are currently aware ansd we undoubetly still have a lot of learning to do, that to "evolve" at once is astronomically unlikely.




You use the word 'idea', though what you propose is a competing theory.

There's no reason you need to pit both theories as competitors.

Though if you give the "an invisible person did it" theory a little more thought, you should realize it raises more questions than it's created to answer. Who created this invisible person? :)
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Post by freethinkingthuthseeker »

spot;1274988 wrote: No theory is true. Theories are either weak or powerful when compared with each other. Truth isn't a concept that applies to any theory.

On the other hand, in the area of knowledge covered by the theory of evolution, nobody has this thing you call "FACT". If they did then it would, I assume, explain everything about the topic and be entirely consistent with the evidence. Is there such a FACT? If there is then I agree, should it also be the truth, the theory of evolution would be irrelevant, pointless and superseded.

What you have as an alternative is a BELIEF, rooted presumably in FAITH. While your FAITH no doubt does you credit, your BELIEF is necessarily arbitrary and shallow, based solely on a consensus among your fellow BELIEVERS and guided by whatever Holy Writ you collectively adhere to. For anyone unhappy enough not to have accepted your particular FAITH, your BELIEFS are by definition - excuse my unavoidable bluntness - meaningless claptrap. This is, no doubt, their loss but it's obviously always going to be so.

The scientific process, unlike your BELIEF, is exploratory and plastic. It's also better funded.


Very " Scientific which is your belief by better funded do you mean superior?
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Post by freethinkingthuthseeker »

yaaarrrgg;1275133 wrote: You use the word 'idea', though what you propose is a competing theory.

There's no reason you need to pit both theories as competitors.

Though if you give the "an invisible person did it" theory a little more thought, you should realize it raises more questions than it's created to answer. Who created this invisible person? :)


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Post by freethinkingthuthseeker »

spot;1274988 wrote: No theory is true. Theories are either weak or powerful when compared with each other. Truth isn't a concept that applies to any theory.

On the other hand, in the area of knowledge covered by the theory of evolution, nobody has this thing you call "FACT". If they did then it would, I assume, explain everything about the topic and be entirely consistent with the evidence. Is there such a FACT? If there is then I agree, should it also be the truth, the theory of evolution would be irrelevant, pointless and superseded.

What you have as an alternative is a BELIEF, rooted presumably in FAITH. While your FAITH no doubt does you credit, your BELIEF is necessarily arbitrary and shallow, based solely on a consensus among your fellow BELIEVERS and guided by whatever Holy Writ you collectively adhere to. For anyone unhappy enough not to have accepted your particular FAITH, your BELIEFS are by definition - excuse my unavoidable bluntness - meaningless claptrap. This is, no doubt, their loss but it's obviously always going to be so.

The scientific process, unlike your BELIEF, is exploratory and plastic. It's also better funded.


My believe was initially built upon Faith but has grown to be a Gloriously rich life of a one to one relationship with our Almighty God which hasd enriched my life enormously

Bless you to knw Truth
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Post by freethinkingthuthseeker »

Ahso!;1275002 wrote: I appreciate the post, FTTS!You're Welcome!:)

People wrote the DNA code because that's how we communicate with one another.

*** People did not write the Dna code this was a tool to understand geneology and was inherant within all forms of life

We use mathematical and grammatical expressions. Because we understand DNA as we do does not mean that is how it was "written."

*** Really we understand Dna? Why is it that genetic deletions and addtions continue to bamboozle us?? Why is a fruit fly genetically so similar to us?

Incidentally, it is science that wrote, or if you prefer, deciphered the code.*** I absolitely insist on decipher because if WE wrote the code it means we did it as simple first life oragnisms? Is that what you meant?

Those same scientists that understand evolution. Were you aware that because of our understanding of natural selection, we were able to understand DNA? JSTOR: uses of evolutionary theory in the human genome project *** Yet it remains speculation

It's obvious you view evolutionary theory in linear terms which is simply inaccurate and it's equally obvious you've never actually read any of it.*** Both linear and lateral evolution remain to be proven and any other You should care to pustulate I find it incredible that people have such "religious"belief in so calle scientific hypothosis

though because everything about you, including your religious beliefs are in fact due to evolutionary events. Even God evolved!:)


Quite staggering assumptions you make without any deep analysis - very sci fi

I assumew your claim that God evolved is ironic but pleasae take account that I am not Religious which I believ is ritualistic, repetitive and superstious

Bless you
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Post by freethinkingthuthseeker »

K.Snyder;1275038 wrote: Human beings, as you know them, evolved from blue green algae

:yh_eyerol I know I'm going to catch hell for that but IT'S TRUE!


You wont catch hell from me

but how many human beings do you know?

What did elephants "evolve from"???:-6
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Post by K.Snyder »

freethinkingthuthseeker;1277215 wrote: You wont catch hell from me

but how many human beings do you know?

What did elephants "evolve from"???:-6


Elephants evolved from Blue-Green Algae as well, they're just really, really, really, really, really, really ugly/BEAUTIFUL!,..depending on what ye preferences are!
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Post by Ahso! »

Will a mod please fork this thread into a new one with a title such as "disputing evolutionary evidence" beginning with post #22 and ending with this post because from that point on this thread has been derailed.

Thanks in advance!
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Post by Clodhopper »

Visiting a mudpool is REALLY getting back to our roots! :wah:

I think one of the problems for people wondering how we get from blue-green algae to humans and elephants is that it's hard to appreciate the timescales involved. By the time (several hundred thousand millions of years) we'd evolved into mouse-sized vaguely mammalian insect and root eaters the dinosaurs had evolved and dominated in varying forms for ANOTHER 160,000,000 years. Only after the meteor strike (combined with a massive increase in vulcanism) that took out the dinosaurs was the field even cleared for the rise and domination of the mammals, and THAT was 65,000,000 years ago. In the next 50,000,000 years we went from that mouselike thing to apelike thing. Still no human-like creatures.

Don't know about elephants. Seem to recall their closest living relative is the shrew.:) I consider duckbilled platypi (platypusses? Platycats?) much more puzzling.

Please note that some of the above will turn out to be wrong as new discoveries are made, but that is the quickest summary I could give. The point is that the planet has been around about 4,500,000,000 years, life has existed on it in very primitive forms for perhaps 3,500,000,000 years and we didn't diverge from a common ape ancestor until somewhere around 15,000,000 years ago.

The timescales are huge. Plenty of time to evolve elephants from pigs and horses from rabbits. :wah:

In the history of life on earth, 15,000,000 years is a very short time.
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Post by LarsMac »

As Ahso! indicated in an earlier post, we tend to think in linear terms.

Evolution is hardly linear, and not always "progressive" as we like to think.

It is not always from simple to complex. It's just change

Many species we find today simply are different from the species that filled their niche before. Not better, not worse, just different.

As cellular development takes place, the more complex organisms that are the result of cooperative cellular function simply change over time. That is evolution.

The species - rabbits, sheep, elephants, dolphins, humans and cattle etc. - all changed in parallel.
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Post by Clodhopper »

LarsMac;1277367 wrote: As Ahso! indicated in an earlier post, we tend to think in linear terms.

Evolution is hardly linear, and not always "progressive" as we like to think.

It is not always from simple to complex. It's just change

Many species we find today simply are different from the species that filled their niche before. Not better, not worse, just different.

As cellular development takes place, the more complex organisms that are the result of cooperative cellular function simply change over time. That is evolution.

The species - rabbits, sheep, elephants, dolphins, humans and cattle etc. - all changed in parallel.


Yes indeed! I was just trying to indicate that the massive timescale involved gives plenty of time for the evolution of complex, weird and wonderful forms that themselves evolve and grow and shrink and flourish and go exinct many times over. My comment about rabbits into horses was indicative (and intended to be faintly humourous) rather than literal - sorry if it misled.
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Basic Evolutionary Theory -- What is it?

Post by Ahso! »

I like to use the example of the tail fin on a fish. We're informed through education to think in terms of problem solving, so we in turn think that the fish grew a tail fin (over many, many years, incidentally - beginning with a little, tiny nub) because there were deeper waters to explore, which is actually backward thinking. The fin evolved and then the fish was capable of swimming in deeper waters for more food sources and thus had gained an advantage over fish without the tail fin. Had there been no deeper waters the fin would have been useless, but that does not mean it would not have mutated (evolved).
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Basic Evolutionary Theory -- What is it?

Post by LarsMac »

Clodhopper;1277372 wrote: Yes indeed! I was just trying to indicate that the massive timescale involved gives plenty of time for the evolution of complex, weird and wonderful forms that themselves evolve and grow and shrink and flourish and go exinct many times over. My comment about rabbits into horses was indicative (and intended to be faintly humourous) rather than literal - sorry if it misled.


You're right.

time scale is BIG.

I think the real driver, though, is at the cellular level, meaning it is the cellular organisms that are driven to survival, and develop cooperative techniques to adapt to the environment, which in turn translates into the vast array of species variations we see.

From the natural perspective, it is irrelevant which species succeed and which fail. Life continues.
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Post by Clodhopper »

Ahso: A neat illustrative tale.

Larsmac: Yep. We're moving towards the Selfish Gene, I think?

Both: You are reminding me that the other thing - apart from the timescale - that people often struggle with is the RANDOMNESS of evolution. Most mutations - the vast majority that occur - do not benefit the organism that has the mutation. It usually kills the organism. But once in a million times (or less), the mutation benefits the organism in some way to give it a survival advantage. That mutation is passed on. The tail on a fish is a good example of that, particularly if the tail of, say a coelacanth (sp?) is compared with a modern tuna.

Hmmm. Sharks are interesting in those terms. What were the earliest shark tails like?
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Post by LarsMac »

I've never read that book. Though the principle as I understand it seems to fit.
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1277417 wrote: I've never read that book. Though the principle as I understand it seems to fit.What book?
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Basic Evolutionary Theory -- What is it?

Post by Clodhopper »

Larsmac: Haven't read the book - lecture on psychology course. :)

Ahso: Book by Richard Dawkins called The Selfish Gene in which he puts forward the idea that our genes drive our evolution through the urge of our DNA to replicate itself - we are so concerned about our children because they are the future of our DNA. The theory gets startling when it points out that WE ourselves are the result of that basic urge within our DNA, the best effort of our DNA to pass itself on, and that this is true of all life.

It also points out that this explains the willingness of animals like bees to suicide to protect the hive - because they are genetically very close to the Queen and grubs they are dying for. They are not protecting their "children" they are protecting their DNA. The same principle is suggested as lying behind most social activity such as displayed by meerkats and indeed as the building block of our own social structures as exemplified by the genetically closely related family unit.

There's more to it, but that's the gist relevant here.
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Basic Evolutionary Theory -- What is it?

Post by yaaarrrgg »

Clodhopper;1277410 wrote:

Hmmm. Sharks are interesting in those terms. What were the earliest shark tails like?


The irony is that their fins are now their biggest risk for extinction. :)

In recent years the population of sharks have been decimated by 70%-90% in some areas, because of China's demand for shark fin soup, and shark cartilage. People around the world will just pull the sharks out of the water by the millions, cut their fins off, and then throw the sharks back in the water to drown. Some large tail fins have a value of more than $10,000.

The animals aren't protected at all, because generally people are scared of the shark's pointy teeth (which used to help it get food) and it's position on the food chain as a top predator. All the things that used to helped it survive and climb the food chain have become liabilities, against a new context of human predators. Some of these species will be driven to extinction by their former "strengths."

The only thing more ironic, would be if brain-eating aliens landed, and realized humans were the most efficient to farm due to the large brain/body weight ratio. :)
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