No, it's not Nietzsche

Post Reply
koan
Posts: 16817
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:00 pm

No, it's not Nietzsche

Post by koan »

When one thinks of philosophy, Nietzsche springs to mind and people panick so...I thought I'd start with.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Jika
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:59 pm

No, it's not Nietzsche

Post by Jika »

Yay! we have a brand new philosophy forum.

Nice gentle kick start Koan :wah:

I'm going with the chicken b/c for the egg to incubate and hatch, it would need a chicken sitting on it. :) :-3 :thinking:
lady cop
Posts: 14744
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:00 pm

No, it's not Nietzsche

Post by lady cop »

Nah...i would have scrambled it with some nice spring onions. nice new forum Koan! :)
koan
Posts: 16817
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:00 pm

No, it's not Nietzsche

Post by koan »

Jika wrote:

I'm going with the chicken b/c for the egg to incubate and hatch, it would need a chicken sitting on it. :) :-3 :thinking:


I like that idea. :yh_devil (advocate) So many things grow from seed and nature often puts a protective shell around things. If the warmth was provided by climate or the "seed" was burrowed into soft earth it would still be possible.
Jika
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:59 pm

No, it's not Nietzsche

Post by Jika »

^ Absolutely it would be possible, however I still find myself leaning towards the chicken.

To back the egg, requires me to minimalise or ignore all the potential environmental dangers posed to the egg which cannot get up and run away like the chicken.

Purely on survival skills I'm suggesting chicken. :)
koan
Posts: 16817
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:00 pm

No, it's not Nietzsche

Post by koan »

There is no chicken.( :wah: )

The survival theory is good too. But lets expand this. For continuation and survival there would have to be two chickens or two eggs of male and female. Did chickens also have an Adam and Eve?
User avatar
anastrophe
Posts: 3135
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm

No, it's not Nietzsche

Post by anastrophe »

all i have to say on the matter is that Nietzsche is pietzsche.
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
Jika
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:59 pm

No, it's not Nietzsche

Post by Jika »

Of course there is a chicken!

The egg is full of chicken DNA which would strongly suggest it came from the chicken

you deny exists... :wah:

The egg had to come from somewhere, just like the chicken right? Which leads me to speculate thus;

The chicken evolved from a reptilian form (It is widely held that most if not all birds were reptiles in the time of the dinosaurs) Reptiles being egg layers too are thought to have evolved from sea-creatures who were originally simple celled organisims. So tracing it back also leads me to vote for the chicken.

Who are these Adam and Eve you speak of ?..............j/k :wah:
koan
Posts: 16817
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:00 pm

No, it's not Nietzsche

Post by koan »

Assuming for a moment that there is a chicken, we are aware that the formation of such a thing takes place inside the protective shell of an egg. If the chicken precedes the egg then the first chickens were different than current chickens and evolved to the egg laying method. If so, then it was not truly a chicken yet and when the evolution happened the modern chicken was "born". Thus the egg precipitates the birth of the new species.

To say that they came from reptiles or another form of bird then includes that species into the question and the origins of the assumed relative becomes part of the question as well.
User avatar
chonsigirl
Posts: 33633
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:28 am

No, it's not Nietzsche

Post by chonsigirl »

But reptiles lay eggs-if it is the egg, how do you know you will get a chicken out of it?
Jives
Posts: 3741
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:00 pm

No, it's not Nietzsche

Post by Jives »

The reptile evolved into the chicken, so strictly speaking this should be the "which came first the reptile or the egg?" thread. And it would be the reptile. ;)
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
kensloft
Posts: 2793
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:37 am

No, it's not Nietzsche

Post by kensloft »

Jives wrote: The reptile evolved into the chicken, so strictly speaking this should be the "which came first the reptile or the egg?" thread. And it would be the reptile. ;)
Before the reptile were the echinoderms. With its chitinous coverings it could be said that was where the egg evolved from, so we are back to the chicken or the egg theory.
Hawke
Posts: 427
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:00 pm

No, it's not Nietzsche

Post by Hawke »

That's like asking "What came first: The embryo or the human? The bear or the cub? The robin or the Robin's egg?" etc. etc.

From a purely scientific viewpoint, let's look at this logically. Chickens (and most living things) are created when sperm meets an egg (ovum) and creates a zygote. A zygote is a complete cell, half of the DNA contributed from the sperm and half of the dna contributed from the egg. Basic biology.

Now, sometimes when the sperm and egg meet their genetic material combines in new and interesting ways (we call it mutation). The zygote, then, does not quite have the same genetic material as its progenitors. Many times, new species are created when this mutation is severe enough (think Darwin's idea of Descent with Modification).

Ok, now that we gave the groundwork laid, let's consider this little scenario: (1) Two non-chickens (whatever the direct ancestors of chickens are) mate. (2) In one of the zygotes created from this pairing, the genetic material has been combined...differently (mutation). We now have the genetic equivalent of a chicken (or something very close to it). (3) When the egg for that new chicken hatches, we have what is in essence the hallmark of a new species, but still close enough genetically to its parents that it is able to mate with members of the non-chicken parent species. (4) Over time, the new mutated genetic material proves to be more dominant than the genetic material of the parent species, and more members of the new chicken species develop. (5) Over more time, the new chicken species grows completely independent, unable to mate with the parent species any longer. We now have a full-fledged chicken species.

So, taking biological precedent into account, then I would have to definitely say that the egg came first :)

I knew all those Undergraduate biology classes would prove useful :)
koan
Posts: 16817
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:00 pm

No, it's not Nietzsche

Post by koan »

Yeah! Hawke agrees with me.

What it comes down to is: What is more likely to have suddenly appeared? A living chicken or the egg from which it likely came.
Jika
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:59 pm

No, it's not Nietzsche

Post by Jika »

Hey Hawke, that is a well thought-out, cogent position.

I will now concede, that the egg, was infact in existence prior to the emergence of the chicken (as a distinct species), thanks to its reptilian forebears already having laid eggs.



:)
kensloft
Posts: 2793
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:37 am

No, it's not Nietzsche

Post by kensloft »

I won't concede a thing because we haven't answered the question of what came first. Nietzsche was alive in the latter part of the 19th century, hence, the geological and paleontological discoveries that we know and understand today were non existent in his day. The last ten years of his life were spent in the non recovery of a nervous breakdown that he had suffered.

The question that he posed had more to do with the understanding of animals that were extant at the time. Paleontologically speaking the question of which came first the chicken or the egg, could be translated ito which came first the ovuum or the sperm?

Echinoids (trilobites, starfish, etc.) were the last remaining living species on the face of the earth, after what is being suggested as a wipe out of every other species caused by some cataclysmic occurrence, save the echinoids. There is sperm and ovuum that propagated these species, hence, which came first the egg or the animal.

Back to you hawke.
Light
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:50 am

No, it's not Nietzsche

Post by Light »

And now I ended up in the same discussion with a person and that person claims, god vreated chikens not eggs, he created humans not embrios... how to tell her that what she v believes in is not my truth?
User avatar
Galbally
Posts: 9755
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:26 pm

No, it's not Nietzsche

Post by Galbally »

My point is which came first the chicken or the egg, or the argument about which one came first?, god this is getting old.

Okay here one, lets say you were a vegan right, and I gave you a chicken nugget and I told you that you had to eat it or else the live chicken I had in my other hand gets a bullet in the head, what would you do?. What about that eh? Its not philosophical, more ethical, but still if we are going to think about eggs and chickens lets run with it.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



My dad 1986.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy”