The Military Destroys the Egocentric
I was recently watching, for the third time, the movie “Full Metal Jacketâ€Â. For those who have been privileged to serve in the military this movie will bring back ^#%*@ memories. For those who have not had this privilege this movie will be instructive as to certain means to instill the proper attitude into the citizen turned soldier.
The military recruit spends eight weeks in basic training upon first entering service. This eight week period includes an introduction to certain skills and knowledge required by all military people. Primarily, however, these eight weeks are designed to change dramatically the attitude of the recruit.
One aspect of this attitude change focuses upon changing the natural egocentric attitude into a sociocentric attitude. We do not generally recognize that we are motivated by the impulse to “view everything within the world in relationship to oneself, to be self-centeredâ€Â. We are innately egocentric.
The people who study such matters seem to conclude that the normal human reaction is generally irrationally egocentric. The military, I think, wishes to change that irrational egocentric behavior into an irrational sociocentric behavior with the military as the social group which replaces the individual ego.
It appears that the key question of an egocentric is “How can I get what I want and avoid having to change in any fundamental way?â€Â
My point in mentioning all of this is to draw your attention to this natural egocentric behavior because it is the source of many of the problems our world is faced with. One of the reasons we (USA) get into terrible messes is because we do not study our adversary and develop rational solutions. Often egocentric tendencies on the part of all humans are our adversary.
I do not think we understand this natural behavior well enough. What is your considered opinion?
The Military Destroys the Egocentric
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Accountable
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The Military Destroys the Egocentric
Your analysis makes sense at first glance. Sports teams have similar sociocentric goals, don't they? This is a conversation I look forward to following.
The Military Destroys the Egocentric
Accountable wrote: Your analysis makes sense at first glance. Sports teams have similar sociocentric goals, don't they? This is a conversation I look forward to following.
If you were asked to list the categories of egocentricism what would you come up with?
I would say something like this:
Selfishness--wish fulfillment--ideology--rationalization...
If you were asked to list the categories of egocentricism what would you come up with?
I would say something like this:
Selfishness--wish fulfillment--ideology--rationalization...
The Military Destroys the Egocentric
Is this meant to discuss the military and egocentric behaviour equaly?
Being in philosophy forums, my guess is that you are less inclined to focus on the value of the military structure than the one aspect of recruit training.
While that one aspect, which parenthood can also instill, is IMO a valuable lesson, the military is not void of egotism. So, setting that example aside, I think that even the most humble of people are still a far cry from accepting that they are merely a dot in the body of a larger organism.
Being in philosophy forums, my guess is that you are less inclined to focus on the value of the military structure than the one aspect of recruit training.
While that one aspect, which parenthood can also instill, is IMO a valuable lesson, the military is not void of egotism. So, setting that example aside, I think that even the most humble of people are still a far cry from accepting that they are merely a dot in the body of a larger organism.
The Military Destroys the Egocentric
Scrat wrote: Exactly. This also leads to all kinds of divisive tendencies. Look at our politicians, Republicans and Dems cannot agree on the issues that matter. They are so egotistical that to compromise is tantamount to defeat. This is bad for America and it is bad for Americans.
Our society is also based on individualism and that too is part of it. When you have too many individuals it is very hard to get things done in a democratic manner.
I sometimes use the term "simple minded" when I talk of the war and it's supporters. Granted it is not right to do it it is a fact that the supporters of the conflict are not thinking of solutions and have a more singular, conflict oriented train of thought that stems from their egotistical side.
IMO.
Egocentric behavior and divisiveness can also be a positive factor in creativity and major accomplishment. I submit that it would be a boring and ho hum world if we were all of a like mind and that without egocentric behavior we would not be enjoying many of societies good things. Without egocentric behavior we would be a robotic society.
Our society is also based on individualism and that too is part of it. When you have too many individuals it is very hard to get things done in a democratic manner.
I sometimes use the term "simple minded" when I talk of the war and it's supporters. Granted it is not right to do it it is a fact that the supporters of the conflict are not thinking of solutions and have a more singular, conflict oriented train of thought that stems from their egotistical side.
IMO.
Egocentric behavior and divisiveness can also be a positive factor in creativity and major accomplishment. I submit that it would be a boring and ho hum world if we were all of a like mind and that without egocentric behavior we would not be enjoying many of societies good things. Without egocentric behavior we would be a robotic society.
The Military Destroys the Egocentric
Lon wrote: Egocentric behavior and divisiveness can also be a positive factor in creativity and major accomplishment. I submit that it would be a boring and ho hum world if we were all of a like mind and that without egocentric behavior we would not be enjoying many of societies good things. Without egocentric behavior we would be a robotic society.
Do you subscribe to Ethical Egoism?
I would very much be into debating that mode of thinking.
Do you subscribe to Ethical Egoism?
I would very much be into debating that mode of thinking.
The Military Destroys the Egocentric
koan wrote: Do you subscribe to Ethical Egoism?
I would very much be into debating that mode of thinking.
I like that idea. Why not start a thread on "Ethical Egoism". Off hand it sounds like an oxymoron. I look forward to it.
I would very much be into debating that mode of thinking.
I like that idea. Why not start a thread on "Ethical Egoism". Off hand it sounds like an oxymoron. I look forward to it.
The Military Destroys the Egocentric
I would say that in the natural state we act egocentrically almost always. Only when we have learned how to think rational can we begin to modify that innate tendency. But no matter how rational we train our self to be we must constantly be on guard against irrational behavior. I suspect the urge to act selfishly is as strong as the urge to over eat or to smoke. I think the egocentricity is combated through careful cultivation of good intellectual character traits.
We can go to school and learn all of the rules and standards of rational thinking and from that we can use that knowledge to be selfish minded or we can be fair-minded. I think that we can compare this to the philosopher and the sophist. I do not mean to set the philosopher on a high pedestal but I merely use this word because I cannot think of another. But I think you get my drift.
What the military does is replace the ego with the group. The attitude of the individual becomes focused upon the group and many of the instinctive behavior that was egocentric now become sociocentric. Even when these soldiers have been seriously wounded in Iraq it appears that their desire is to get back to their buddies.
We can go to school and learn all of the rules and standards of rational thinking and from that we can use that knowledge to be selfish minded or we can be fair-minded. I think that we can compare this to the philosopher and the sophist. I do not mean to set the philosopher on a high pedestal but I merely use this word because I cannot think of another. But I think you get my drift.
What the military does is replace the ego with the group. The attitude of the individual becomes focused upon the group and many of the instinctive behavior that was egocentric now become sociocentric. Even when these soldiers have been seriously wounded in Iraq it appears that their desire is to get back to their buddies.
The Military Destroys the Egocentric
coberst,
I would be interested to hear exactly how rational thought combats egotism. I'm not sure which process you are thinking of. A lot of intellectuals use intellectualism to inflate their ego.
Replacing the individual ego with a group is still egocentric unless that group is humanity in general. It just expands to include other individuals in one's body of concern but continues to place a barrier. Often the motivation for doing this, such as the military, is to improve the sense of personal power by increasing the number of people ready to battle for preservation. This is hardly better than the reduction of egocentrism that happens when having a child whose welfare then precedes one's own.
I would be interested to hear exactly how rational thought combats egotism. I'm not sure which process you are thinking of. A lot of intellectuals use intellectualism to inflate their ego.
Replacing the individual ego with a group is still egocentric unless that group is humanity in general. It just expands to include other individuals in one's body of concern but continues to place a barrier. Often the motivation for doing this, such as the military, is to improve the sense of personal power by increasing the number of people ready to battle for preservation. This is hardly better than the reduction of egocentrism that happens when having a child whose welfare then precedes one's own.
The Military Destroys the Egocentric
koan wrote: coberst,
I would be interested to hear exactly how rational thought combats egotism. I'm not sure which process you are thinking of. A lot of intellectuals use intellectualism to inflate their ego.
Replacing the individual ego with a group is still egocentric unless that group is humanity in general. It just expands to include other individuals in one's body of concern but continues to place a barrier. Often the motivation for doing this, such as the military, is to improve the sense of personal power by increasing the number of people ready to battle for preservation. This is hardly better than the reduction of egocentrism that happens when having a child whose welfare then precedes one's own.
I think that rational thought combats egotism when reason is combined with the knowledge of the fact that we all behave egotistically and that to prevent the ego from inhibiting reason we develop strong intellectual character. Intellectual character is the result of constantly and habitually recognizing our egotistical tendency and fighting those tendencies.
It appears to me that egocentricism often prevents a person from being rational.
I think that the ego has certain drives that make it difficult to be rational. One example is the desire for power. One can gain power through dominating others. One can gain power indirectly by submitting to others. The word ‘sycophant’ describes the latter. We do not need to go beyond recent headlines in the US to see the power one can acquire by being a sycophant. A sycophant cannot easily follow reason if reason interferes with groveling.
On the other hand the bully does irrational things in the quest for power.
I think the desire to belong is another ego problem that often leads to irrational behavior. Ideology constantly leads to foolish and irrational behavior.
I think that the ego leads people to forget, or to becomes self righteous, or to become blind to things happening, etc.
The point is that learning how to reason well is a necessary condition for reasoning well but is not a sufficient for rational behavior. We have to recognize all of our innate selfish characteristics so that we can overcome them if we are to behave rationally.
I would be interested to hear exactly how rational thought combats egotism. I'm not sure which process you are thinking of. A lot of intellectuals use intellectualism to inflate their ego.
Replacing the individual ego with a group is still egocentric unless that group is humanity in general. It just expands to include other individuals in one's body of concern but continues to place a barrier. Often the motivation for doing this, such as the military, is to improve the sense of personal power by increasing the number of people ready to battle for preservation. This is hardly better than the reduction of egocentrism that happens when having a child whose welfare then precedes one's own.
I think that rational thought combats egotism when reason is combined with the knowledge of the fact that we all behave egotistically and that to prevent the ego from inhibiting reason we develop strong intellectual character. Intellectual character is the result of constantly and habitually recognizing our egotistical tendency and fighting those tendencies.
It appears to me that egocentricism often prevents a person from being rational.
I think that the ego has certain drives that make it difficult to be rational. One example is the desire for power. One can gain power through dominating others. One can gain power indirectly by submitting to others. The word ‘sycophant’ describes the latter. We do not need to go beyond recent headlines in the US to see the power one can acquire by being a sycophant. A sycophant cannot easily follow reason if reason interferes with groveling.
On the other hand the bully does irrational things in the quest for power.
I think the desire to belong is another ego problem that often leads to irrational behavior. Ideology constantly leads to foolish and irrational behavior.
I think that the ego leads people to forget, or to becomes self righteous, or to become blind to things happening, etc.
The point is that learning how to reason well is a necessary condition for reasoning well but is not a sufficient for rational behavior. We have to recognize all of our innate selfish characteristics so that we can overcome them if we are to behave rationally.
The Military Destroys the Egocentric
coberst wrote: I think that rational thought combats egotism when reason is combined with the knowledge of the fact that we all behave egotistically and that to prevent the ego from inhibiting reason we develop strong intellectual character. Intellectual character is the result of constantly and habitually recognizing our egotistical tendency and fighting those tendencies.
Rational thought is a process not a conclusion. Some would say that, rationally, in an egocentric world, we better make sure we look out for ourselves as no one else is doing so.
Rational thought is a process not a conclusion. Some would say that, rationally, in an egocentric world, we better make sure we look out for ourselves as no one else is doing so.
The Military Destroys the Egocentric
Koan says--"Rational thought is a process not a conclusion." I agree.
The Military Destroys the Egocentric
Scrat says--"A good question is how does the military avoid this? Authoritarian rule? The military style of ethics?"
I think the military has found a very affective means to sublimate the ego. They replace the ego with the group, the soldier becomes sociocentric. They are very successful and I do not know all the reasons but it seems that the group has become the ego.
I think the military has found a very affective means to sublimate the ego. They replace the ego with the group, the soldier becomes sociocentric. They are very successful and I do not know all the reasons but it seems that the group has become the ego.
The Military Destroys the Egocentric
from wikipedia:
The key concept is that the value and success of a group is obtained by each member maintaining a distinct, functioning identity in the minds of each of the members. The cognitive limit to this span of attention in individuals is often set at seven. Rapid shifting of attention can push the limit to about ten. After ten, subgroups will inevitably start to form with the attendant loss of purpose, dominance order, and individuality, with confusion of roles and rules
There is a hierarchy in the military and there is a tendency to subgroup. They seem to be submitting to the will of the military but they are just bonding into a collection of groups that will follow orders. The egos of the upper level military personnel don't seem to have the same mentality. If it is assumed that they rose through the ranks then they must reclaim their ego as their positions are raised. So the purpose of the ego smashing is to create followers not to empower the soldiers as human beings.
It occured to me that bringing rational thought into a discussion of the military was rather amusing. It is not desirable to have a rational soldier. His desire to place himself in the middle of a battleground would be somewhat compromised.
The key concept is that the value and success of a group is obtained by each member maintaining a distinct, functioning identity in the minds of each of the members. The cognitive limit to this span of attention in individuals is often set at seven. Rapid shifting of attention can push the limit to about ten. After ten, subgroups will inevitably start to form with the attendant loss of purpose, dominance order, and individuality, with confusion of roles and rules
There is a hierarchy in the military and there is a tendency to subgroup. They seem to be submitting to the will of the military but they are just bonding into a collection of groups that will follow orders. The egos of the upper level military personnel don't seem to have the same mentality. If it is assumed that they rose through the ranks then they must reclaim their ego as their positions are raised. So the purpose of the ego smashing is to create followers not to empower the soldiers as human beings.
It occured to me that bringing rational thought into a discussion of the military was rather amusing. It is not desirable to have a rational soldier. His desire to place himself in the middle of a battleground would be somewhat compromised.
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Accountable
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The Military Destroys the Egocentric
koan wrote: from wikipedia:
There is a hierarchy in the military and there is a tendency to subgroup. They seem to be submitting to the will of the military but they are just bonding into a collection of groups that will follow orders. The egos of the upper level military personnel don't seem to have the same mentality. If it is assumed that they rose through the ranks then they must reclaim their ego as their positions are raised. So the purpose of the ego smashing is to create followers not to empower the soldiers as human beings.
It occured to me that bringing rational thought into a discussion of the military was rather amusing. It is not desirable to have a rational soldier. His desire to place himself in the middle of a battleground would be somewhat compromised.
Reading this, it occurs to me that "rational" is a subjective term, but there's no way I'm getting off the sidelines of this convo.
There is a hierarchy in the military and there is a tendency to subgroup. They seem to be submitting to the will of the military but they are just bonding into a collection of groups that will follow orders. The egos of the upper level military personnel don't seem to have the same mentality. If it is assumed that they rose through the ranks then they must reclaim their ego as their positions are raised. So the purpose of the ego smashing is to create followers not to empower the soldiers as human beings.
It occured to me that bringing rational thought into a discussion of the military was rather amusing. It is not desirable to have a rational soldier. His desire to place himself in the middle of a battleground would be somewhat compromised.
Reading this, it occurs to me that "rational" is a subjective term, but there's no way I'm getting off the sidelines of this convo.
The Military Destroys the Egocentric
Accountable wrote: Reading this, it occurs to me that "rational" is a subjective term, but there's no way I'm getting off the sidelines of this convo.
There is a mighty big difference between good, sound reasons and reasons that sound good.
-Burton Hillis
But in modern war...you will die like a dog for no good reason.
-Ernest Hemingway
Rational thinking has allowed mankind to justify some completely irrational results.
-koan
There is a mighty big difference between good, sound reasons and reasons that sound good.
-Burton Hillis
But in modern war...you will die like a dog for no good reason.
-Ernest Hemingway
Rational thinking has allowed mankind to justify some completely irrational results.
-koan
The Military Destroys the Egocentric
Koan says--"It occured to me that bringing rational thought into a discussion of the military was rather amusing. It is not desirable to have a rational soldier. His desire to place himself in the middle of a battleground would be somewhat compromised."
I copy that. I suspect it would be interesting to find a book that gave us some insight as to how the military accomplishes this mind control so successfully. Does anyone know of such a book?
I copy that. I suspect it would be interesting to find a book that gave us some insight as to how the military accomplishes this mind control so successfully. Does anyone know of such a book?
The Military Destroys the Egocentric
America gets into these terrible messes because the American people have not yet learned how to deal with their egocentric tendencies and thereby facilitating good judgment. I don’t think we can blame others even though our ego tells us that we are not to blame.
The Military Destroys the Egocentric
The military tends to replace a predominantly egocentric person with a predominantly sociocentric person.
The attitude of the soldier becomes indoctrinated into a particular group; the military. S/he becomes a member of a strong group and begins to unquestionably accept from that group a way of talking, a set of friends and enemies, certain rituals, behavior patterns, etc.
I suspect the change from civilian to soldier might be compared with the change from believer to non believer or vice versa. It might be compared to the young person who becomes a gang member. It might be compared with the non ideologue becoming an ideologue.
Sociocentric thinking is egocentric thinking wherein the group tends to replace the ego.
I am not a sociologist but from my readings this is pretty much a consensus of those who study such things.
The attitude of the soldier becomes indoctrinated into a particular group; the military. S/he becomes a member of a strong group and begins to unquestionably accept from that group a way of talking, a set of friends and enemies, certain rituals, behavior patterns, etc.
I suspect the change from civilian to soldier might be compared with the change from believer to non believer or vice versa. It might be compared to the young person who becomes a gang member. It might be compared with the non ideologue becoming an ideologue.
Sociocentric thinking is egocentric thinking wherein the group tends to replace the ego.
I am not a sociologist but from my readings this is pretty much a consensus of those who study such things.
The Military Destroys the Egocentric
Here is an article on what to expect in boot camp that tells a fair bit about the conditioning used to create soldiers.
coberst wrote: Sociocentric thinking is egocentric thinking wherein the group tends to replace the ego.
Agreed.
coberst wrote: Sociocentric thinking is egocentric thinking wherein the group tends to replace the ego.
Agreed.