We Don’t Know What We Don’t Know!
It appears to me that our family and our educational system determine to a large extent what our fundamental attitudes are throughout the rest of our life.
Our family and our schools instill so deeply our fundamental attitudes toward the basic comprehension we have about our self and our world that I become very despondent about any effort to modify those basic attitudes, in the adult population, within a society.
We do make significant progress occasionallyâ€â€an example is the change in attitudes of the majority toward the minority in the last forty years in the US following the passage of the Civil Rights laws during the Johnson administration.
Another example is our change in attitude toward smoking in the last two to three decades.
The saying “we don’t know what we don’t know†haunts me. How can an adult learn “to know what they don’t know’? How can a colorblind adult comprehend ‘blue’?
We Don't Know What We Don't Know!
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chonsigirl
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We Don't Know What We Don't Know!
The family unit is what instills the basic concepts of life to their children, teaching them about love, respect, what are the important things in life, etc. The educational system takes up when families do not teach basic social attitudes and functions. That is a lack within the family structure itself.
It is easier to exemplify social and moral values to younger children then adults.
Since your posts usually only pertain to adult modification of these things, my question to you is, what are you doing to insure that the upcoming youngsters in your family structure are learning the morals and values that you deem are necessary for them to gain for a successful life?
As an educator, and for over a decade a single mother of 4, I made sure I modeled and taught my children well, as the saying goes. It has been very successful-4 kids, ages 31-18 now, never one major problem with any of them. They are all working adults, respectful of those around them, and live full and happy lives. Could it be I brought them up with a great religious upbringing, along with my modeling of these traits? I think so.
It is easier to exemplify social and moral values to younger children then adults.
Since your posts usually only pertain to adult modification of these things, my question to you is, what are you doing to insure that the upcoming youngsters in your family structure are learning the morals and values that you deem are necessary for them to gain for a successful life?
As an educator, and for over a decade a single mother of 4, I made sure I modeled and taught my children well, as the saying goes. It has been very successful-4 kids, ages 31-18 now, never one major problem with any of them. They are all working adults, respectful of those around them, and live full and happy lives. Could it be I brought them up with a great religious upbringing, along with my modeling of these traits? I think so.
We Don't Know What We Don't Know!
Chonsi
I am retired and have raised, with their mother, five children. My oldest turns fifty this year. All are healthy and reasonably secure. I do not think them to be wise but they have a good head on their shoulders.
My focus is on adults because I think that time is not on our side. Our capacity for technology far out strips our ability to wisely use that technology. Waiting for one or two generations for adults who can think clearly and critically is dangerous. Just as New Orleans sat and waited for the big storm I fear that we sit and wait for dangerous catastrophes.
I am retired and have raised, with their mother, five children. My oldest turns fifty this year. All are healthy and reasonably secure. I do not think them to be wise but they have a good head on their shoulders.
My focus is on adults because I think that time is not on our side. Our capacity for technology far out strips our ability to wisely use that technology. Waiting for one or two generations for adults who can think clearly and critically is dangerous. Just as New Orleans sat and waited for the big storm I fear that we sit and wait for dangerous catastrophes.
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Accountable
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We Don't Know What We Don't Know!
In that case, I suggest you learn and understand adult learning theory. It may help you with your approach to make it mor effective.
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Accountable
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We Don't Know What We Don't Know!
http://honolulu.hawaii.edu/intranet/com ... ults-2.htm
This may help if you're not familiar with the principles.
This may help if you're not familiar with the principles.
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chonsigirl
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Coberst, then in your opinion, is wisdom to deal with these matters never attainable?
What is the difference you perceive as a head on their shoulder and wise?
(I would think at the age of 51 I have become somewhat wise, more then a head on my shoulders) This was not a critique of your response, although I am surprised at your evaluation. One of my children at 20 I would consider wise already, in many areas of life and what to do to change and attain specific goals outside her personal realm. Everyone is a unique individual, and society works best that way, not with total conformity. Then creativity will be stifled.
I do not think this generation sits and does not nothing, the wheels are not spinning, idling until the next disaster. Each and everything thing that happens is a learning experience-or, as your example of New Orleans, they would not have examined what went right or wrong after the fact. They wouldn't have bothered at all.
To realign thinking and perception at an older age must contain some form of incentive for the majority of people, or they will not be interested. And this comes in many forms, not just one.
What is the difference you perceive as a head on their shoulder and wise?
(I would think at the age of 51 I have become somewhat wise, more then a head on my shoulders) This was not a critique of your response, although I am surprised at your evaluation. One of my children at 20 I would consider wise already, in many areas of life and what to do to change and attain specific goals outside her personal realm. Everyone is a unique individual, and society works best that way, not with total conformity. Then creativity will be stifled.
I do not think this generation sits and does not nothing, the wheels are not spinning, idling until the next disaster. Each and everything thing that happens is a learning experience-or, as your example of New Orleans, they would not have examined what went right or wrong after the fact. They wouldn't have bothered at all.
To realign thinking and perception at an older age must contain some form of incentive for the majority of people, or they will not be interested. And this comes in many forms, not just one.
We Don't Know What We Don't Know!
coberst wrote: We Don’t Know What We Don’t Know!
It appears to me that our family and our educational system determine to a large extent what our fundamental attitudes are throughout the rest of our life.
Our family and our schools instill so deeply our fundamental attitudes toward the basic comprehension we have about our self and our world that I become very despondent about any effort to modify those basic attitudes, in the adult population, within a society.
We do make significant progress occasionallyâ€â€an example is the change in attitudes of the majority toward the minority in the last forty years in the US following the passage of the Civil Rights laws during the Johnson administration.
Another example is our change in attitude toward smoking in the last two to three decades.
The saying “we don’t know what we don’t know†haunts me. How can an adult learn “to know what they don’t know’? How can a colorblind adult comprehend ‘blue’?
When did you stop learning and changing?
Did you not have prejudices and pre-conceived ideas that changed when you went out in the world and met people from different cultures with different ideas and you learned to accept and respect people for what you are with all their flaws and appreciate their worth-or did you stay your attitides and beliefs stay the same as they were in your teens or early twenties? Why so negative?
It appears to me that our family and our educational system determine to a large extent what our fundamental attitudes are throughout the rest of our life.
Our family and our schools instill so deeply our fundamental attitudes toward the basic comprehension we have about our self and our world that I become very despondent about any effort to modify those basic attitudes, in the adult population, within a society.
We do make significant progress occasionallyâ€â€an example is the change in attitudes of the majority toward the minority in the last forty years in the US following the passage of the Civil Rights laws during the Johnson administration.
Another example is our change in attitude toward smoking in the last two to three decades.
The saying “we don’t know what we don’t know†haunts me. How can an adult learn “to know what they don’t know’? How can a colorblind adult comprehend ‘blue’?
When did you stop learning and changing?
Did you not have prejudices and pre-conceived ideas that changed when you went out in the world and met people from different cultures with different ideas and you learned to accept and respect people for what you are with all their flaws and appreciate their worth-or did you stay your attitides and beliefs stay the same as they were in your teens or early twenties? Why so negative?
We Don't Know What We Don't Know!
I will give you one instance for my negativity.
I have over the months written a great deal about CT (Critical Thinking). In the last three decades our educational system has decided to put a good deal of effort in teaching CT in our schools and colleges. If you Google ‘critical thinking’ you will get 135 million returns. In other words CT is not something I have concocted but it is vitally important as indicted by these facts.
Over these months I have seen very little evidence to indicate that anyone has been aroused sufficiently to have bothered to study what CT is about. It is obvious to me that the people reading these posts are very intelligent and quite capable of understanding what I am writing.
Despite all of this there is little indication that anyone has been moved to investigate. This leads me to a sense of despondence and why I ask how you move a person to a level of curiosity and caring that they will make a small effort to learn something new and very important.
I have read the internet reference from Accountable and I find nothing surprising here. I am surprised however that those educated and highly intelligent adults cannot be moved to undertake a small bit of self learning of such an important matter.
This, for me, is like finding the canary dead in its cage in the mine. If our adults fail such an easy test what can one expect of them.
I have over the months written a great deal about CT (Critical Thinking). In the last three decades our educational system has decided to put a good deal of effort in teaching CT in our schools and colleges. If you Google ‘critical thinking’ you will get 135 million returns. In other words CT is not something I have concocted but it is vitally important as indicted by these facts.
Over these months I have seen very little evidence to indicate that anyone has been aroused sufficiently to have bothered to study what CT is about. It is obvious to me that the people reading these posts are very intelligent and quite capable of understanding what I am writing.
Despite all of this there is little indication that anyone has been moved to investigate. This leads me to a sense of despondence and why I ask how you move a person to a level of curiosity and caring that they will make a small effort to learn something new and very important.
I have read the internet reference from Accountable and I find nothing surprising here. I am surprised however that those educated and highly intelligent adults cannot be moved to undertake a small bit of self learning of such an important matter.
This, for me, is like finding the canary dead in its cage in the mine. If our adults fail such an easy test what can one expect of them.
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chonsigirl
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We Don't Know What We Don't Know!
Coberst, as adults we are continually learing new things. Because we do not want to study Critical Thinking as you perceive it, does not mean we are dead canaries. (I hope it was not the avian flu) Rather, it shows we are still living adults, and choose what subjects areas we desire to grow in.
There are multitudes of areas to study, and new ones to be discovered.
For myself, I prefer studying history, and contributing to that field. This is done through critical research and analysis. I also pass on this knowledge to the next generation, via daily teaching and written works.
PS Googling a fact with such a large return does not make it important. I got 9,800,000 returns for Mickey Mouse, as my test example of what Google can bring up. This was a serious response.
There are multitudes of areas to study, and new ones to be discovered.
For myself, I prefer studying history, and contributing to that field. This is done through critical research and analysis. I also pass on this knowledge to the next generation, via daily teaching and written works.
PS Googling a fact with such a large return does not make it important. I got 9,800,000 returns for Mickey Mouse, as my test example of what Google can bring up. This was a serious response.
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Accountable
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We Don't Know What We Don't Know!
I'm of a mind that everyone contributes to society in their own way of their own choosing. Chonsi's contribution is to instill a knowledge and appreciation of history. Yours is to instill a knowledge and appreciation of critical thinking. Mine is to coach those with a desire to reach a goal, to help them explore options and choose the right tool or technique for success.
While it's true that there's nothing surprising in the link I provided you, as you said, the fact remains that you haven't engaged our interest, at least to the degree you apparently desire.
You complain about us not being willing to do a little study. I suggest you haven't found the right hook.
In my own endeavors to interest people in a new subject (or one they naturally shy from, such as tracking metrics), I've found it essential to tie it to their real lives. Give them a reason to do the work - a prize at the other end. That can't happen in a vacuum. I had to use subjects they were interested in, examples they were familiar with. Move from the known to the unknown, but make sure the known is also, well, liked.
It takes a thorough knowledge of your subject - an ability to see how to apply it in myriad situations - and letting the learner pick the situation to apply it in.
In short, I recommend you explore the subjects we discuss and join in, rather than starting your own thread. Make an insightful point. Work into the conversation how CT can make anybody more knowledgeable in this particular subject.
It's a skill that takes practice, so don't expect instant results. I was really ham-handed at it at first. But it's invaluable in adult learning.
While it's true that there's nothing surprising in the link I provided you, as you said, the fact remains that you haven't engaged our interest, at least to the degree you apparently desire.
You complain about us not being willing to do a little study. I suggest you haven't found the right hook.
In my own endeavors to interest people in a new subject (or one they naturally shy from, such as tracking metrics), I've found it essential to tie it to their real lives. Give them a reason to do the work - a prize at the other end. That can't happen in a vacuum. I had to use subjects they were interested in, examples they were familiar with. Move from the known to the unknown, but make sure the known is also, well, liked.
It takes a thorough knowledge of your subject - an ability to see how to apply it in myriad situations - and letting the learner pick the situation to apply it in.
In short, I recommend you explore the subjects we discuss and join in, rather than starting your own thread. Make an insightful point. Work into the conversation how CT can make anybody more knowledgeable in this particular subject.
It's a skill that takes practice, so don't expect instant results. I was really ham-handed at it at first. But it's invaluable in adult learning.
We Don't Know What We Don't Know!
coberst wrote: I will give you one instance for my negativity.
I have over the months written a great deal about CT (Critical Thinking). In the last three decades our educational system has decided to put a good deal of effort in teaching CT in our schools and colleges. If you Google ‘critical thinking’ you will get 135 million returns. In other words CT is not something I have concocted but it is vitally important as indicted by these facts.
Over these months I have seen very little evidence to indicate that anyone has been aroused sufficiently to have bothered to study what CT is about. It is obvious to me that the people reading these posts are very intelligent and quite capable of understanding what I am writing.
Despite all of this there is little indication that anyone has been moved to investigate. This leads me to a sense of despondence and why I ask how you move a person to a level of curiosity and caring that they will make a small effort to learn something new and very important.
I have read the internet reference from Accountable and I find nothing surprising here. I am surprised however that those educated and highly intelligent adults cannot be moved to undertake a small bit of self learning of such an important matter.
This, for me, is like finding the canary dead in its cage in the mine. If our adults fail such an easy test what can one expect of them.
Coberst, I think it is true to say that you approach CT with a passion. It is most definitely your primary interest. And I am aware that I am grossly understating your involvement. But if we all followed the same road, the human race would not provide the richness of culture that it does.
You expect too much of us all if you want us all to become passionate about CT. And, you underestimate the members on this forum. I have yet to see you become involved in any threads other than the ones you, yourself, create.
How about it. Is CT as important as friendship? If so, why?
My passions include many things too numerous to list here. Some are intellectual, some are emotional, and others require dexterity. CT is an essential part of everything if you want to do it well.
I have over the months written a great deal about CT (Critical Thinking). In the last three decades our educational system has decided to put a good deal of effort in teaching CT in our schools and colleges. If you Google ‘critical thinking’ you will get 135 million returns. In other words CT is not something I have concocted but it is vitally important as indicted by these facts.
Over these months I have seen very little evidence to indicate that anyone has been aroused sufficiently to have bothered to study what CT is about. It is obvious to me that the people reading these posts are very intelligent and quite capable of understanding what I am writing.
Despite all of this there is little indication that anyone has been moved to investigate. This leads me to a sense of despondence and why I ask how you move a person to a level of curiosity and caring that they will make a small effort to learn something new and very important.
I have read the internet reference from Accountable and I find nothing surprising here. I am surprised however that those educated and highly intelligent adults cannot be moved to undertake a small bit of self learning of such an important matter.
This, for me, is like finding the canary dead in its cage in the mine. If our adults fail such an easy test what can one expect of them.
Coberst, I think it is true to say that you approach CT with a passion. It is most definitely your primary interest. And I am aware that I am grossly understating your involvement. But if we all followed the same road, the human race would not provide the richness of culture that it does.
You expect too much of us all if you want us all to become passionate about CT. And, you underestimate the members on this forum. I have yet to see you become involved in any threads other than the ones you, yourself, create.
How about it. Is CT as important as friendship? If so, why?
My passions include many things too numerous to list here. Some are intellectual, some are emotional, and others require dexterity. CT is an essential part of everything if you want to do it well.
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Accountable
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We Don't Know What We Don't Know!
Why do I get the impression it's more important that you say you want to inspire people to embrace critical thinking than to actually inpire people to embrace critical thinking?
We Don't Know What We Don't Know!
Accountable wrote: Why do I get the impression it's more important that you say you want to inspire people to embrace critical thinking than to actually inpire people to embrace critical thinking?
I don't know. Perhaps you might know?
I don't know. Perhaps you might know?
We Don't Know What We Don't Know!
Diuretic
I have briefly viewed on the Internet, the words of Freire and perhaps Mezirow (I must admit that I cannot remember much of anything I have read of Mezirow).
My attitude toward learning is that there are two types of learning: teacher/pupil and autodidactic. I consider the adult generally uses the teacher/pupil either because they are looking for credentials or they are inexperienced in the ways of self-directed learning. I also take the view that professional educators are interested only in teacher/pupil learning because that is the only kind with money-in-it.
I want adults to stop thinking about education as a teacher/pupil enterprise and began to think of it as a lifetime self-actualizing activity.
As a result of these biases I have seldom paid any attention to what professionals say about adult education. Perhaps I am mistaken and if so I would appreciate anything you might want to say about my bias.
I have briefly viewed on the Internet, the words of Freire and perhaps Mezirow (I must admit that I cannot remember much of anything I have read of Mezirow).
My attitude toward learning is that there are two types of learning: teacher/pupil and autodidactic. I consider the adult generally uses the teacher/pupil either because they are looking for credentials or they are inexperienced in the ways of self-directed learning. I also take the view that professional educators are interested only in teacher/pupil learning because that is the only kind with money-in-it.
I want adults to stop thinking about education as a teacher/pupil enterprise and began to think of it as a lifetime self-actualizing activity.
As a result of these biases I have seldom paid any attention to what professionals say about adult education. Perhaps I am mistaken and if so I would appreciate anything you might want to say about my bias.
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Accountable
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We Don't Know What We Don't Know!
For me, learning's more fun as a group endeavor. Sure, I read and explore on my own, but I really get fired up when in a group of people with similar interests. Avenues I never imagined open for me. I make progress far faster than I could on my own.
I think probably I'm just more socially oriented than you, coberst. I really enjoy the interaction, while you may actually feel hindered by it. It seems you almost disdain it.
I think probably I'm just more socially oriented than you, coberst. I really enjoy the interaction, while you may actually feel hindered by it. It seems you almost disdain it.
We Don't Know What We Don't Know!
Accountable
Perhaps one of humanities greatest problems is that of dialogue--communicative action. I have been studying the problem for some time. Are you acquainted with this matter.? How people can come together in dialogue and with dialectical rationality develop solutions to multi-logical concerns?
Critical Thinking is a program that focuses a good deal of effort toward understanding this problem.
Perhaps one of humanities greatest problems is that of dialogue--communicative action. I have been studying the problem for some time. Are you acquainted with this matter.? How people can come together in dialogue and with dialectical rationality develop solutions to multi-logical concerns?
Critical Thinking is a program that focuses a good deal of effort toward understanding this problem.
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Accountable
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We Don't Know What We Don't Know!
In my world we call it synergy.
We Don't Know What We Don't Know!
Accountable
Playing tennis is more fun than learning how to play tennis. But you will find that the more you invest in learning the more satisfaction you will gain from playing.
Playing tennis is more fun than learning how to play tennis. But you will find that the more you invest in learning the more satisfaction you will gain from playing.
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Accountable
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I see your point but not the parallel. Group study vs studying alone hardly equates to playing vs learning tennis, primarily because group study isn't competition. A closer parallel would be practicing tennis alone against a wall or with a serving gun (a name I made up but I hope you know what I mean) vs practicing with other players of varied skill, where they share tips and strategies.
We Don't Know What We Don't Know!
How am I supposed to know what Im supposed to know if I don't know what I'm supposed to know in the first place?
We Don't Know What We Don't Know!
deckard wrote: How am I supposed to know what Im supposed to know if I don't know what I'm supposed to know in the first place?
The answer to that question is to activate your curiosity--adapt an enquiring attitude--develop good intellectual habits--and when you find something that interests you pursue it to the point that you understand the answer to your questions that started your curiosity. Do that for a lifetime and you will have learned a great deal of what you do not know.
The answer to that question is to activate your curiosity--adapt an enquiring attitude--develop good intellectual habits--and when you find something that interests you pursue it to the point that you understand the answer to your questions that started your curiosity. Do that for a lifetime and you will have learned a great deal of what you do not know.
We Don't Know What We Don't Know!
Accountable
Taking classes is worth while. The problem I find with a teacher/pupil relationship is that we are not pursuing an independent intellect. If you are talking about a discussion group like Great Books--I think that is good for making one conscious of concepts but it is, in my experience, not very good for acquiring knowledge of any depth that is required for reaching understanding.
Taking classes is worth while. The problem I find with a teacher/pupil relationship is that we are not pursuing an independent intellect. If you are talking about a discussion group like Great Books--I think that is good for making one conscious of concepts but it is, in my experience, not very good for acquiring knowledge of any depth that is required for reaching understanding.
We Don't Know What We Don't Know!
Accountable wrote: In that case, I suggest you learn and understand adult learning theory. It may help you with your approach to make it mor effective.
Couldn't agree more.
Couldn't agree more.
We Don't Know What We Don't Know!
coberst wrote: The saying “we don’t know what we don’t know†haunts me. How can an adult learn “to know what they don’t know’? How can a colorblind adult comprehend ‘blue’?
We DO know what we don't know!
If someone talks about something, and we know nothing about that subject, then we can research it - read up on it. Learn what we don't - or didn't - know!
When I was at Uni, we had old men in their 70s & 80s, who had been in the war, attending history classes. They wanted to learn about it from other perspectives besides their own! Anyone can learn new things, at any age. Maybe some people will have more time to learn when they retire.
Give a blind person an ice cube. Tell them that's how the colour 'blue' feels.
Describing a colour is something they will have no concept of if they have always been blind. At least 'feeling' the colour gives them a way to comprehend.
We DO know what we don't know!
If someone talks about something, and we know nothing about that subject, then we can research it - read up on it. Learn what we don't - or didn't - know!
When I was at Uni, we had old men in their 70s & 80s, who had been in the war, attending history classes. They wanted to learn about it from other perspectives besides their own! Anyone can learn new things, at any age. Maybe some people will have more time to learn when they retire.
Give a blind person an ice cube. Tell them that's how the colour 'blue' feels.
Describing a colour is something they will have no concept of if they have always been blind. At least 'feeling' the colour gives them a way to comprehend.