Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

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FourPart
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by FourPart »

The question, I suppose, is how you define conciousness. For instance, does a chimp have conciousness? Are they self aware? Gorillas most certainly are. Koko, for instance demonstrated this beyond a shadow of a doubt, being fully able to communicate in sign language ( ). Chimps have also been observed in the wild to have a moral code, with justice implemented by the others in the group for breaches of this code (so much for getting morals from the Bible). Furthermore, if you check YouTube you will see an experiment where one Chimp gets a peanut for performing a simple task, but when he sees another chimp being given a grape for the exact same task got really put out abaout it. Males have also been seen using treats to buy sexual favours from females. This seems to demonstrate a great deal of self awareness, as well as a base understanding of currency. As this can be seen in other Primates, I see no reason to believe it wouldn't have been evident in primitive man.
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Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1522063 wrote: The question, I suppose, is how you define conciousness. For instance, does a chimp have conciousness? Are they self aware? Gorillas most certainly are. Koko, for instance demonstrated this beyond a shadow of a doubt, being fully able to communicate in sign language ( ). Chimps have also been observed in the wild to have a moral code, with justice implemented by the others in the group for breaches of this code (so much for getting morals from the Bible). Furthermore, if you check YouTube you will see an experiment where one Chimp gets a peanut for performing a simple task, but when he sees another chimp being given a grape for the exact same task got really put out abaout it. Males have also been seen using treats to buy sexual favours from females. This seems to demonstrate a great deal of self awareness, as well as a base understanding of currency. As this can be seen in other Primates, I see no reason to believe it wouldn't have been evident in primitive man.


I totally disagree with the studies t hat claim any animal is conscious as humans are conscious. I think chimpanzees have a high level of instinct and remarkable talents that can mimic consciousness , but they are not conscious beings in my view. A 1 year old human child could out think them.
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by LarsMac »

Mickiel;1522068 wrote: I totally disagree with the studies t hat claim any animal is conscious as humans are conscious. I think chimpanzees have a high level of instinct and remarkable talents that can mimic consciousness , but they are not conscious beings in my view. A 1 year old human child could out think them.


I know a lot of Humans who don't seem to be very "Conscious" these days.

And, you've never met a Chimpanzee up close, either, I'd wager.
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by Mickiel »

LarsMac;1522071 wrote: I know a lot of Humans who don't seem to be very "Conscious" these days.

And, you've never met a Chimpanzee up close, either, I'd wager.


No I have never met a chimp. Neither did I attend the Cambridge declaration on consciousness.
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Post by LarsMac »

A book that you might find interesting:

Consciousness and the Brain by Stanislas Dehaene
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Post by Mickiel »

LarsMac;1522083 wrote: A book that you might find interesting:

Consciousness and the Brain by Stanislas Dehaene


Thank you I like books on consciousness.
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Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

Post by FourPart »

Wouldn't you agree that the ability to hold a 2 way conversation would indicate conciousness?

Koko could not only converse using sign language, but even asked for a mate & had a go at video dating. She was even critical of some of them, based on their video profiles. You can't say that is not displaying conciousness.

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Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1522185 wrote: Wouldn't you agree that the ability to hold a 2 way conversation would indicate conciousness?



Koko could not only converse using sign language, but even asked for a mate & had a go at video dating. She was even critical of some of them, based on their video profiles. You can't say that is not displaying conciousness.




The vedio was blocked in my country.
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Post by tude dog »

If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles,” Doug Larson.

“Never doubt the courage of the French. They were the ones who discovered that snails are edible.”
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Post by LarsMac »

Mickiel;1522205 wrote: The vedio was blocked in my country.


Try this one:

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Post by Mickiel »

LarsMac;1522217 wrote: Try this one:




I enjoyed the vedio , but I saw no signs of consciousness in koko. I am very skeptical of them using narration to convince viewers of their theory.
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Post by LarsMac »

Mickiel;1522220 wrote: I enjoyed the vedio , but I saw no signs of consciousness in koko. I am very skeptical of them using narration to convince viewers of their theory.


Do you know sign language?
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Post by Mickiel »

LarsMac;1522224 wrote: Do you know sign language?


No I don't Know sign language and it took 30 years of filming to paste together Koko's displays of his use of it. I am skeptical of that.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Mickiel;1522225 wrote: No I don't Know sign language and it took 30 years of filming to paste together Koko's displays of his use of it. I am skeptical of that.


Given that the first film of Koko talking came out when she was seven that would be difficult.
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Post by Mickiel »

Bryn Mawr;1522227 wrote: Given that the first film of Koko talking came out when she was seven that would be difficult.


I was impressed that a human could get that close to that type of ape. Especially the other ape that they gave to Koko for friendship.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Mickiel;1522231 wrote: I was impressed that a human could get that close to that type of ape. Especially the other ape that they gave to Koko for friendship.


I recall that a similar experiment with a male chimp gave rather more problems once the chimp passed puberty but the mountain gorilla is a far more peaceable being and highly social.
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Post by LarsMac »

Mickiel;1522225 wrote: No I don't Know sign language and it took 30 years of filming to paste together Koko's displays of his use of it. I am skeptical of that.


He was a she, by the way.
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Post by Mickiel »

LarsMac;1522236 wrote: He was a she, by the way.


Yes I know. Even using this example , one of the finest, you can't squeeze consciousness out of this ape.
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Post by LarsMac »

I often must wonder whether many humans are capable of consciousness.
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Post by Mickiel »

LarsMac;1522253 wrote: I often must wonder whether many humans are capable of consciousness.


Once a human child enters this world they are conscious.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Mickiel;1522254 wrote: Once a human child enters this world they are conscious.


How does consciousness differ from self-awareness?
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Post by Mickiel »

Bryn Mawr;1522255 wrote: How does consciousness differ from self-awareness?


Its the same thing.
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Post by LarsMac »

Mickiel;1522254 wrote: Once a human child enters this world they are conscious.


If you say so.
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Post by Mickiel »

LarsMac;1522259 wrote: If you say so.


Well it may take a slap on the rear end by the doctor to jump start it.
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Post by LarsMac »

" The problem of animal awareness lies at the interface of science and philosophy. As a starting point for the study of phenomena such as awareness, mind, consciousness, etc., we hardly have any reference other than our own human experience and in the context of a nondualistic ontology this can be justified. In philosophy and psychology it appears to be very difficult to give direct operational definitions of terms such as consciousness, etc. So we might expect this to be even more difficult in the study of animals. A detailed knowledge of animals and their behaviour is necessary in order to be able to say something about their subjective experiences, and to prevent us from excessively projecting human experience on animals.

Descriptive terms dealing with the nature of animal awareness, like intelligence, consciousness, etc., are normative as well (Hodos 1982), and therefore the study of animal awareness has wide-ranging moral implications for our own conduct towards animals (Griffin 1981a; Midgley 1981); some of the reluctance in recognizing the question o animal awareness as legitimate and "scientific" might be explained this way. The question of animal awareness implies the question of the human-animal relationship."

Link: THE QUESTION OF ANIMAL AWARENESS
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Post by LarsMac »

Another interesting work on the subject:

Link:Self‐Awareness in Human and Chimpanzee Infants: What Is Measured and What Is Meant by the Mark and Mirror Test?
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Post by Mickiel »

LarsMac;1522262 wrote: Another interesting work on the subject:

Link:Self‐Awareness in Human and Chimpanzee Infants: What Is Measured and What Is Meant by the Mark and Mirror Test?


I welcome reading any test on the subject. I myself recommend "The origin of consciousness And the bicameral mind." By j. Jaynes
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Post by FourPart »

Just what do you define as 'Conciousness'? Koko was a perfect demonstration of primate conciousness. Not only did she have an extensive vocabulary, but she also had awareness of her sexuality, as in her later years she asked for a mate, as she never got to meet with one under natural circumstances, so they arranged a load of profiles from other male gorillas in captivity, and she went through all the profiles on the laptop. She even asked questions & occasionally gave quite scathing remarks about the ones that she didn't think much of. Unfortunately, even when she did make a selection it didn't work out, as the male was too much towards instinctive breeding, and they couldn't cross the cultural bridge.

The point is that by her making enquiries about others & her potential future as a Mother definitely demonstrates self awareness.

It is also worth remembering that it wasn't until relatively recently that Australian Aborigines were recognised as being human with their own self awareness. Placing oneself above another by reason of race is bad enough, but where do you draw the line. It is known that there is a very close relationship between humans & other primates. It is simply arrogant to believe that they don't have self awareness as well.
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Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1522274 wrote: Just what do you define as 'Conciousness'? Koko was a perfect demonstration of primate conciousness. Not only did she have an extensive vocabulary, but she also had awareness of her sexuality, as in her later years she asked for a mate, as she never got to meet with one under natural circumstances, so they arranged a load of profiles from other male gorillas in captivity, and she went through all the profiles on the laptop. She even asked questions & occasionally gave quite scathing remarks about the ones that she didn't think much of. Unfortunately, even when she did make a selection it didn't work out, as the male was too much towards instinctive breeding, and they couldn't cross the cultural bridge.

The point is that by her making enquiries about others & her potential future as a Mother definitely demonstrates self awareness.

It is also worth remembering that it wasn't until relatively recently that Australian Aborigines were recognised as being human with their own self awareness. Placing oneself above another by reason of race is bad enough, but where do you draw the line. It is known that there is a very close relationship between humans & other primates. It is simply arrogant to believe that they don't have self awareness as well.


I am not continuous with the idiotic hierarchical bloodline of speechless apes.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Mickiel;1522256 wrote: Its the same thing.


Even my dogs are self aware although they're not the brightest spark in the sky.
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Post by LarsMac »

Mickiel;1522281 wrote: I am not continuous with the idiotic hierarchical bloodline of speechless apes.


So, in your world, if a critter cannot speak, they are not conscious?
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Post by Mickiel »

LarsMac;1522284 wrote: So, in your world, if a critter cannot speak, they are not conscious?


Of course not , vocal chords are not a sign of consciousness , but it can be a characteristic of it under certain circumstances. Just as vocabulary is not a sign of intelligence , but under certain circumstances it could be.

Defining consciousness is not a one page cut and dry thing. Least not in my study of it. I view consciousness as a human capacity in the physical world. Only humans are conscious in my study of it and there is no reason for animals to be conscious : for what? Why should animals be conscious? Explain to me why? They have survived millions of years without it.
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Post by Mickiel »

If primordial man was conscious he would have developed , performed , and created much better and quicker. That's what I believe. But they peaked at a primordial level then died out. Muck like apes, showing only high instinct.
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Post by Singh-Song »

Mickiel;1522285 wrote: Of course not , vocal chords are not a sign of consciousness , but it can be a characteristic of it under certain circumstances. Just as vocabulary is not a sign of intelligence , but under certain circumstances it could be.

Defining consciousness is not a one page cut and dry thing. Least not in my study of it. I view consciousness as a human capacity in the physical world. Only humans are conscious in my study of it and there is no reason for animals to be conscious : for what? Why should animals be conscious? Explain to me why? They have survived millions of years without it.


There are any number of animals which are undeniably conscious. And your logic there is non-existent. Because humans ARE animals. Hence, your argument is that "there is no reason for animals (including humans) to be conscious : for what? Why should animals be conscious? Explain to me why? They have survived millions of years without it." Except that we ARE conscious. And there were indisputably massive advantages to our developing consciousness to the level that we did.

As for 'primordial man'- just how far back are we talking about? At exactly what stage, in history or pre-history, pray tell, do you believe that mankind DID become 'conscious'? What archeological and/or biological evidence are you basing that entirely arbitrary dividing line on? And in your opinion, was this a universal dividing line, or do you effectively believe in racial supremacy- that only one race of Homo Sapiens evolved consciousness (i.e, Homo Sapiens Sapiens, as opposed to Homo Sapiens Neanderthalis or Homo Sapiens Rhodensiensis), and that we are the sole conscious beings to have ever existed on this planet?
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Singh-Song;1522328 wrote: There are any number of animals which are undeniably conscious. And your logic there is non-existent. Because humans ARE animals. Hence, your argument is that "there is no reason for animals (including humans) to be conscious : for what? Why should animals be conscious? Explain to me why? They have survived millions of years without it." Except that we ARE conscious. And there were indisputably massive advantages to our developing consciousness to the level that we did.

As for 'primordial man'- just how far back are we talking about? At exactly what stage, in history or pre-history, pray tell, do you believe that mankind DID become 'conscious'? What archeological and/or biological evidence are you basing that entirely arbitrary dividing line on? And in your opinion, was this a universal dividing line, or do you effectively believe in racial supremacy- that only one race of Homo Sapiens evolved consciousness (i.e, Homo Sapiens Sapiens, as opposed to Homo Sapiens Neanderthalis or Homo Sapiens Rhodensiensis), and that we are the sole conscious beings to have ever existed on this planet?


Hello and welcome back :-6
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Post by Mickiel »

Singh-Song;1522328 wrote: There are any number of animals which are undeniably conscious. And your logic there is non-existent. Because humans ARE animals. Hence, your argument is that "there is no reason for animals (including humans) to be conscious : for what? Why should animals be conscious? Explain to me why? They have survived millions of years without it." Except that we ARE conscious. And there were indisputably massive advantages to our developing consciousness to the level that we did.

As for 'primordial man'- just how far back are we talking about? At exactly what stage, in history or pre-history, pray tell, do you believe that mankind DID become 'conscious'? What archeological and/or biological evidence are you basing that entirely arbitrary dividing line on? And in your opinion, was this a universal dividing line, or do you effectively believe in racial supremacy- that only one race of Homo Sapiens evolved consciousness (i.e, Homo Sapiens Sapiens, as opposed to Homo Sapiens Neanderthalis or Homo Sapiens Rhodensiensis), and that we are the sole conscious beings to have ever existed on this planet?


I answered all those questions in the thread. Consciousness was not developed, you don't grow it like a weed. The Atheist mind is too far gone

Down the wrong roads. There is no explanation for them.
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Post by FourPart »

There is no doubt that many animals communicate within their species, and even more so within their same groups. Many of those not for personal gain, but for the overall good of the community. Killer Whales teach their young how to hunt. Chimps plan attacks on neighbouring groups. All of this shows intelligence & conciousness.

One question you have not answered - in just the same way as you always sidestep the question. Just exactly how do you define conciousness? Your type never like to define the parameters of anything as it leaves it open for something to meet the definition, thus proving you wrong.
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Post by Ted »

How to define consciousness. A good question.
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Post by LarsMac »

I believe that without Empathy, there is no true Consciousness.
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Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1522391 wrote: There is no doubt that many animals communicate within their species, and even more so within their same groups. Many of those not for personal gain, but for the overall good of the community. Killer Whales teach their young how to hunt. Chimps plan attacks on neighbouring groups. All of this shows intelligence & conciousness.

One question you have not answered - in just the same way as you always sidestep the question. Just exactly how do you define conciousness? Your type never like to define the parameters of anything as it leaves it open for something to meet the definition, thus proving you wrong.


I really don't know how to define consciousness. Awareness is a common accepted answer that I agree with. I think consciousness is life with purpose. Its the uncanny miracle of thought.
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Post by Mickiel »

Mickiel;1522496 wrote: I really don't know how to define consciousness. Awareness is a common accepted answer that I agree with. I think consciousness is life with purpose. Its the uncanny miracle of thought.


God is a conscious being. In him is life and that is the gift he gave humanity. He has reproduced life and made us conscious.
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Post by Ted »

Why do orcas support dying whals in the death an dying process by staying with them until They have died The same with elephants.
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Post by Mickiel »

Ted;1522540 wrote: Why do orcas support dying whals in the death an dying process by staying with them until They have died The same with elephants.


Preprogrammed life to its full wonder.
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Post by FourPart »

Mickiel;1522550 wrote: Preprogrammed life to its full wonder.


Perhaps that's just it. Conciousness is preprogrammed as part of the existence of life, and as all life has a common ancestor there is no reason to believe that all life doesn't posess some degree of conciousness. After all, it has been proven that plants communicate with others to warn of predators. Animals give out warning signs to others in their groups, thus working toward the common good. For instance, when a rabbit encounters danger it thumps its foot on the ground. There is no possible selfish reason for it to do this, as it's not going to benefit him in any way. It merely warns others. An instinctive conciousness of the group. To what degree of conciousness there is is an entirely different matter. At what point do you define something as being self aware? As previously demonstrated, Koko the gorilla communicated through sign language & would refer to herself in the 1st party and others in the 2nd & 3rd parties. There is no doubt that this is definitely conciousness of self awareness, but then comes the question of asking the bigger question of where we came from. Is that a matter of self awareness, or is it simply that they don't care?
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Post by Ted »

FourPart excellent Questions.
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Post by Ted »

It seems to me that the animal kingdom may be smarter then we care to admit.
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Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1522565 wrote: Perhaps that's just it. Conciousness is preprogrammed as part of the existence of life, and as all life has a common ancestor there is no reason to believe that all life doesn't posess some degree of conciousness. After all, it has been proven that plants communicate with others to warn of predators. Animals give out warning signs to others in their groups, thus working toward the common good. For instance, when a rabbit encounters danger it thumps its foot on the ground. There is no possible selfish reason for it to do this, as it's not going to benefit him in any way. It merely warns others. An instinctive conciousness of the group. To what degree of conciousness there is is an entirely different matter. At what point do you define something as being self aware? As previously demonstrated, Koko the gorilla communicated through sign language & would refer to herself in the 1st party and others in the 2nd & 3rd parties. There is no doubt that this is definitely conciousness of self awareness, but then comes the question of asking the bigger question of where we came from. Is that a matter of self awareness, or is it simply that they don't care?


Trees communicate with each other as well. A strong case for consciousness can be made all over nature and I admit to that, it cannot be ignored. But can it be explained?
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Post by Mickiel »

Mickiel;1522632 wrote: Trees communicate with each other as well. A strong case for consciousness can be made all over nature and I admit to that, it cannot be ignored. But can it be explained?


Those trees were here before man, they emerged first but didn't speak first. A lot of things we see now came from the mind of man. Logic drives everything but not all physical laws. Explaining everything can get mechanical and complicated, you can't reduce everything.
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Post by Mickiel »

Then we have "Causation": if we now have strong emergence, well the problem is what caused that? At the end of the day what jumps have we made? Do we jump over biology? Micro-physics? What over explanation will we have?
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Post by Raphael »

Annunaki background and theory is probably much more than you imagine .

Consider the evidence supporting an 'Alien" race that tampered with Homus Erectus to reveal Homo Sapiens in a few seconds -- figuratively speaking .

You will find it a great read and full of very strong scientific support evidence .



If you are not convinced , just carry on asking the same questions and getting no answers .

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